jakesnk Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 In case multiple engine flame out occurs, immediate corrective actions as described in LMA supplement No C-130-64 (TD null, PROP mechanical, bleed off, APU GEN ON etc), will bring the engines on speed. I ‘ve tried it a couple of times in the simulator and it really works fine! My concern is about old B models equipped with GTC/ATM GEN. As soon as the engines flame out and the bleed air pressure in the manifold begins to decrease, I am not sure if the remaining bleed air will be sufficient to operate the ATM Gen for enough time, (given the time the crew needs to identify the situation) in order to restart at least the first engine. I’ve tried it on the ground (only with GTC supplying air) and as long as GTC bleed air valve is closed the time for ATM gen out light to illuminate seems very short. Also there is no B model sim available in order to test this one. Any B model expert suggestions or tips on multiple engine power loss? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEFEGeorge Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 From my memory that would make sense of B's, E's, and early H's (73 H's and HC-H/P/N's) since they don't have an APU. Without some electrical power I don't see any way to get the engines restarted even is they are windmilling fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakesnk Posted September 15, 2012 Author Share Posted September 15, 2012 Exactly my point! So, if a B model airplane experiences a 4 engine flame out, it is unlikely to restart the engines.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1685FCC Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 Exactly my point! So, if a B model airplane experiences a 4 engine flame out, it is unlikely to restart the engines.... If you flamed out all 4 engines the only way you could get those bad boys fired back up is if, well you were able to tie the bus in flight, but I seriously doubt those B models have that TCTO done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US Herk Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 If you flamed out all 4 engines the only way you could get those bad boys fired back up is if, well you were able to tie the bus in flight, but I seriously doubt those B models have that TCTO done. The only other option you have is to attempt to intentionally decouple a prop, let it spin and get you a generator back to restart the others...desperate, but about the only thing going. You've got the rest of your life to figure it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakesnk Posted September 16, 2012 Author Share Posted September 16, 2012 Our B models(ex USAF airplanes) don't have this TCTO installed. We had a lot of discussions with my colleagues here about this malfunction and lots of diferent opinions. So we think, the only option would be to decouple an engine by placing the throttle to ground idle. We choose an INBD engine, in order to have better chances to control the airplane. This will bring one generator back on line, powering the ESS AC and ESS DC bus. After that drop RPM below 65%, have the engines restarted and continue with 3-engines operation. It sounds quite risky and desperate but like US Herk wrote we will have the rest of our life to figure it out!. Thank you guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gizzard Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 BOKYAG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The old adage ' don't tun out of altitude, airspeed and ideas at the same definitely applies here", doesn't it? Giz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakesnk Posted September 17, 2012 Author Share Posted September 17, 2012 1685FCC, Is the TCTO 1C-130-1281, the one you mention? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tusker Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 When your time is up!!..........your time is up!!!..........keep the right aircraft attitude...speed and mainly....your ideas.............just remember the Gimlie glider....If you loose all 4 engines you have a problem!!.....................................Réj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEFEGeorge Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 Don't ever recall hearing if King 56 tried to decouple to get a generator back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdaley Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 I flew E's for 4 years and B's for 12. I heard of 4 engine Roll backs on E's and saw the start of one on E's but never heard of it on B's. BTW Rufus Bussey switched of the Master switch and the roll back stopped at about 95%. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC10FE Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 (edited) Although this wasn't a 4-engine rollback, I was a crew chief on a Dyess E-model that lost all 4 engines. It's a good story about how inexperience can get a person in a world of trouble. We were on 63-7805 flying from Hamilton AFB to Hickam AB on an overwater nav trainer. During taxi out, the FE discovered that #3 ice detector was not working (first mistake). They decided to go anyway. Sometime after the ETP, # 2 gearbox oil pressure went to zero. The FE asked me to check the fuse (second mistake). I told him that if the gauge had failed, the needle would not go to zero -- it would hold its last position. He said to check it anyway. Guess what? The fuse was fine. As he was telling me to replace it, we all heard a loud boom and #2 started vibrating. It was shut down and ARRS was notified. A short time later, we encountered some pretty severe icing. Now remember, #2 is feathered and #3 ice detector was inop -- no ice detection, but the crew wasn't aware of that (lack of system knowledge). Then #3 bogged down, so that was feathered, too. A few minutes later, the front windshield looked as if we had flown into a bucket of slush. No's 1 and 4 started to bog down. The AC immediately pushed #3 condition lever to air start, but nothing happened. The AC and co-pilot both reached for the T-handle at the same time and pushed it in. As # 3 started to rotate, #2 was still feathered and #1 & #3 were around 70%. To this day, I'll never know where the power came from to drive #3 out of feather. Maybe a generator failed to drop off the line? I heard they tried to replicate it in the sim and crashed every time. Shortly after that, I crosstrained to FE. That way, I at least had a bit more control of my own fate. A lot more fun than turning wrenches, too. While the crew was drinking mai tai's at Waikiki, I was out helping to pull an engine or two. The FE and I later became very good friends. That trip was one his first after the Rock -- he had come from ATC where he was a T-37 crew chief. OK, enough of this old fart's ramblings. -- back to the original thread. Don R. Below is the article from the Dyess paper. It's kind of disjointed because of the way it was laid out. Edited September 26, 2012 by DC10FE spelling, of course! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakesnk Posted September 30, 2012 Author Share Posted September 30, 2012 Very interesting story DC10FE! I read recently a report from a similar incident from another military operator, which is still under investigation. In your case how did the FE specifically understood during taxi that #3 ice detector was inoperative? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC10FE Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 jakesnk, Perhaps I worded that statement incorrectly. I should have said that while the FE was doing his taxi checks #3 ice detector would not test. It's not something to return to the ramp to have repaired, but he should have kept that in mind. It's been a very long time, but I think the engine ice detection system is only operable with the condition lever in run. If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone here will correct me. Don R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEFEGeorge Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Don, long time for me as well but I seem to recall the same thing about the ice detection and the condition lever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakesnk Posted October 1, 2012 Author Share Posted October 1, 2012 The ice detection system operation depends(among others) on the ice detector. If the airplane is equipped with a mechanical probe the system starts functioning when the airspeed over the detector reaches 40knots. On engines with a solid state ice detector the system becomes armed as soon as power is supplied to the detector. In both cases condition lever has to be in the run position and in the first case the engine has to be running, in order to have flow around the probe(on the ground). When the test is performed during taxi, the whole circuit is tested(continuity, relays, lights, timer etc) and not the ice detector. So in order to test the ice detector you have to bench test it on the shop. Please correct me if I am missing sth here. Anyway my consideration is 4 engine power loss and I am thinking about requesting a similar scenario in the flight sim, next week.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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