F.S. 245 out the back door

[Spectre623]

While my mind is on the old style air drop systems...Is there anyone on this board that remembers this accident at Pope AFB? It was late 1968 or early 69 that a new airdrop/rigging system with cables and pullys attached to FS 245 and running aft was being tested. It was the wing commanders aircraft and was assigned to the 777Th TAS as I remember. I saw the setup since it was parked next to my bird prior to launch. The acft. RTB shortly after T.O. with firetrucks screaming and it taxied back to the spot. After all the brass had their look I was allowed on the acft. and cables and parts of 245 were everywhere inside the acft. As far as I know that was the only test of this system. Any comments or knowledge of this accident? I don't remember if the loadmaster was hurt or not. Sam Macgown weren't you at Pope about that time also? Bill

[jflimbach]

Well, I guess I have to own up to the fact that I was the loadmaster involved in that incident. At the time I was assigned to the 4419th Test Squadron, USAF Tactical Airlift Center at Pope. One of the neat things about that assignment was that our commander was a BG (Joe Donovan) and the Wing CO was only an 0-6. And the General never let him forget it either.

The other good thing was that we had our own aircraft, 63-7768 that we stole from the 777th. Since we didn't have any maintainers, you guys got to do that for us. And, oh yeah, since our big dog outranked yours, guess who had priority for maintenance and everything else?

But, back to the story. The date was March 7, 1969 and the mission was a routine test of the LAPES towplate that one of our engineers designed. The load was three twelve foot platforms linked together and pulled out all at once by a cluster of three 28-foot extraction parachutes, which were in turn pulled out by a 15-foot extraction parachute being towed behind the aircraft. The 15 footer was held in check by a mechanical device called the Towplate. At the release point, about 50 feet in the air, the towplate was activated allowing the drogue parachute ( 15-foot) to pull out a G-12 deployment bag that had the three 28-footers packed inside. The 28-footers had vent lines installed that pulled the apex down toward the skirt for faster deployment. Once the chutes deployed, the load was released from the RH locks and began moving aft with great gusto. The aft CG shift caused the nose of the aircraft to rise, and if everything went just right, the aircraft would be at a level attitude at a wheel height of five feet when the load came off the ramp. Sometimes it actually happened that way, but after three years flying on the LAPES test program I have way too many stories of when it didn't quite go as it should have. Material for a book if I could get Sam to write it. But, as usual I digress.

Back to the incident in question, but first a short tutorial on how the Towplate worked. The primary release for this particular version of towplate used the LH static line retriever to pull a slide aft thereby releasing the towlink and allowing all the action happen. There was a massive aluminum backup plate mounted between the retriever motor and the FS245 bulkhead to strengthen the mounting.

The loadmaster's position during the drop was standing right underneath the retriever holding on to two metal handles attached to two cables, which were in turn attached to the towplate. One was painted Silver and the other painted Red. At the "Green Light" call, the CP hit the green light switch and since the LM being the diligent chap he was had already flipped the LAPES/CDS switch to the armed position, (Aha, so that's where that useless switch came from) the retriever started winding in and (in theory) released the towplate. At the same time, the LM pulled his silver handle from which which a cable ran all the way back the towplate on the ramp and was connected directly to the unlocking slide. So, either the LM or the CP would effect the release. Usually the LM since the retriever cable had a two turn break tie of 80-lb tape to overcome and by then the LM had already pulled his handle and started the extraction sequence. For some reason we never could convince our chief LAPES pilot and CO, Benny Fioritto of this. It got to the point we just disconnected the retriever cable and he still wouldn't believe we beat him to the release. But there's not enough room in one post for all the Fioritto stories, as some of you know.

Anyway, this incident occurred because of the way the static line retriever cable was configured. There was a pulley mounted the aft end of the backup plate that changed the direction of retriever cable to forward and down. Another pulley was mounted on the floor just forward the first centerline tiedown ring. Running the cable through this pulley changed the direction to aft, and the cable was run all the way out to the ramp hinge where it laid on the floor, eventually underneath the platform(s). The retriever cable wasn't long enough to reach the towplate so we had a short cable made up with a swage ball on each end. We then attached the one end of short cable to the towplate and the other to the end of the retriever cable using a standard barrel connector. The barrel connector was tied to a tiedown ring with (as I remember) two turns of 80-lb tape. This allowed the retriever to build up enough force by the time it overcame the break tie to jerk the short cable and release the towplate.

So, we deploy the drogue and start down from 600 feet with me standing blithely underneath the retriever backup plate with towplate mechanical release and drogue jettison cables in my hand. Descending through 50 feet and passing the release panels, the CP calls "Green Light' and flips the jump light switch. The retriever starts to reel in and I pull the silver handle releasing the towplate. The load starts to move aft and just as it does, the 80-lb tie breaks allowing the barrel connector to jump up in the air just as the platform arrives. The aft end of one of the platform roller pads catches on the end of the barrel connector momentarily applying the entire extraction force of 60,000+ lbs to the static line retriever cable, back through the two pulleys causing 100,000 lbs or so of force to be applied the retriever mounting hardware and the FS245 bulkhead just long enough to pull it all apart and down onto my head. Think of a carpenter driving a 16d nail, with me being the nail and you get the picture.

My boss, CMSgt Jesse Goddard, was looking at me when it happened and is absolutely convinced that I'm dead So he steps over me and runs up to the cockpit yelling in Fioritto's ear, "Limbach's dead". Fioritto heads back to Pope (from Sicily DZ) at Warp 9 while I'm sleeping blissfully on the cabin floor with a big pile of assorted metal bits on top of me.

First thing I remember is waking up pissed off because I can't see anything and my other boss, MSgt Dave Purdy, is yelling at somebody and keeps waking me up. Eventually I figure out that he's trying to open a first aid kit, so I yell at him to give the damn thing to me and I'll open it. A pretty neat trick since I'm flat on my back and can't see anything because blood has pooled up in my eye sockets from the head wound. You know how much a head wound bleeds, right? Holy Jeez I couldn't believe all that blood came out of me. Looked like somebody took a fire hose and shot red paint all over me.

So, we get on the ground in front of base ops and somebody helps me walk down the crew entrance door and over to the ambulance. Off we whiz to the Pope clinic where the Flt Surgeon X-rays my head and pretty much loses interest once he figures out the skull Is not fractured. So he tells his Sgt. to stitch me up using thus an such a method, being a good Sgt and not being one to lose a training opportunity, the Sgt goes and gets Amn Fobnocker and is going to let him get some OJT on my head. The Sgt says, "OK, watch me" and he puts a few stitches in by way of demonstration. "OK, you try it", and Amn F. goes at it. "Great" says the Sgt, "Keep it up and I'll be back in a minute". And off he goes. Amn F. is stitching merrily along when after 15 minutes or so, the Sgt comes back, takes a look and says, "No, no that's not the way I showed you. Pull out those last 20 or so stitches and do them over". So, out they come and over he starts. I am beginning to not be amused by now. At any rate, when he finishes and gets the seal of approval, the stitch count stands at 56.

They put a bandage on my head, have me sign the 1042 as DNIF and turn me loose. I walk back to our office up on hill and the boss tells me to go home and not come back until I feel OK. So naturally I go straight to the stag bar at the NCO club for a couple of stiff drinks before I jump in my truck and drive the 13 miles home.

Long story, but you did ask and it won't long before I forget it, since I'm starting to forget a lot of stuff.

A couple postscripts:

1. In those days my wife did medical transcribing in the radiology department at Womack Army Hospital at FT. Bragg where the Flt Surgeon sent my X-ray to be read by one of the radiologists. She was halfway through typing it before it dawned on her that it was me. Of course nobody thought to notify her.

2. I got a call the next morning saying for me go over to the Flt Surgeon's office and sign off DNIF as fit to fly. Not to come back to work, but get off DNIF. Turns out if you were in an incident/accident and were DNIF longer than 48 hours it escalated into some kind of big deal. Our general decided that the LAPES program couldn't stand that kind of scrutiny so told the FS to sign me back to duty. Which he did. I screwed around for about three weeks and then went back to flying LAPES tests.

3. Oh yeah, the fix for the problem was easy. We made a long cable that ran all the way from FS245 to the towplate and connected it to the retriever cable FORWARD of the load so there was nothing for the platform to catch on the way out. Problem solved. At least that one was. We had lots more problems in the next two years of testing. Damaged equipment and airplanes a lot, but never injured anyone else so I was the only human casualty of the LAPES test program.

I have picture of the front of the aircraft after all that crap ripped out. Not sure whether I have it on the computer, but if I find it, I'll put it up here.

Strange stuff, but you just couldn't make this shit up!

Edited February 21, 2013 by jflimbach
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[Spectre623]

WOW! Dang John, sounds like there ain't nothing wrong with your memory even after getting banged in the head with half a C-130. What an outstanding replay of the accident. Thanks for all the extra info too, they fill in some blanks. It would be amazing to hear about all the uh-ohs that have happened with old Herk and her folks! Thanks again John for the "Rest of the story". Bill

[Dan Wilson]

It would be amazing to hear about all the uh-ohs that have happened with old Herk and her folks!

That could be a whole new forum

[jflimbach]

WOW! Dang John, sounds like there ain't nothing wrong with your memory even after getting banged in the head with half a C-130. What an outstanding replay of the accident. Thanks for all the extra info too, they fill in some blanks. It would be amazing to hear about all the uh-ohs that have happened with old Herk and her folks! Thanks again John for the "Rest of the story". Bill

Bill:

Finally found the photo of what hit me in the head. I was standing right underneath the flat bottom of the retriever backup plate. Notice how sturdy the backup plate is compared to the actual aircraft structure that takes the load (sometimes) of the static line retriever. 1/8" aluminum and a handful of rivets.

John

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[gizzard]

Sometime around late '70, early 71, if my feeble memory is good, a loadmaster was killed , (I think), after being hit in the head when one or maybe both, static line bracket supports, I think that is what they were called, pulled loose on a troop drop. These things braced the bracket that held the anchor lines for troop drops, and where right aft of the troop doors. The pole-like supports, 2 each, went up to upper part of the aircraft. Immediately after this, we had to go to life support and trade the beany helmets we had for full head types, if we didn't already have it, and have a boom mike installed. anybody remember the incident???? I seem to recall findin', on pre-flight, an anchor cable tensioner almost stripped out, and coulda pulled out with a load application. The back of the bus could be a very dangerous place, as John can verify without dispute.

Giz

[jflimbach]

Giz:

Had to be at least '71 because I remember being stationed at Eglin when I heard it. I can't remember what I had for breakfast most mornings, but I think I remember it was a Chief by the name of John Tenney and the incident happened in Germany.

As it was told to me, he was standing on the ramp aft of the troop door, and the anchor cable support bracket broke as the troops were exiting and either the bracket or anchor cable or both hit him in the head and killed him on the spot. Maybe somebody who was at Rhein Main in those days can correct that as necessary. And, yep, TAC's response was for us all to wear helmets on airdrops. Which makes sense, except that I can't stand the darn thing and only wear it when I have to be on O2. Having survived a good crack in the head wearning nothing but one of those old gray headsets you'd think I'd know better. Benny Fioritto, once he figured out I was still alive, said it only went to prove that you can't kill a LM by hitting him in the head.

Speaking of anchor cables, does anyone remember the story of the LM at YPG who had the forward end of the cable come loose (while his harness was attached to it) and went out the back of the airplane and was killed when the strap on the harness failed? Seems they had trouble tightening the old style brass turnbuckle, so they lubed it with hydraulic fluid and of course it vibrated loose during the drop and out he went. Seems like that was in the 70's too and then we couldn't hook up harnesses to the anchor cable for 20-25 years.

And now that I'm thinking about anchor cable horror stories, back in 2009 we were doing a test program for a German parachute company down at Coolidge, AZ. We were doing gravity drops of 463L pallets weighing up to 10,000 lbs and one of 13,600 lbs on a combat expendable platform we built for the occasion. The tests were for drogue parachutes deployed by static lines with the deployment bag being retained. One of these chutes was a real monster and had a deployment bag about the size of a G-12 bag, or maybe bigger. Of course we had the anchor cable stop at the usual location as per the -9. The only problem was that the static line was long enough to let this bag get out in the slipstream and when I looked back after the gate cut, my #2 who was trying to pull in the bag had one hand on the deployment line and the other on the anchor cable and was getting thrown around like a rag doll. Fortunately, the bag finally blew back in the cargo compartment before his shoulder pulled out of its socket and just before the aft anchor cable support pulled completely off the fuselage. As it was we had to land and tie it up out of the way and switch to the RH anchor cable for the rest of that day's drops. We moved the anchor cable stop to a location about 18" forward of the troop door and that kept the bag from getting past the end of the ramp and all was well from there on out. So, even after 50 years of doing this, including lots of time in flight test, you can still learn things the hard way (don't let your D-bag get out of the airplane) when you least expect it. The picture shows the aft anchor cable actuator and support torn off the structure and tied up with 550 cord so we could get the door open.

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Edited April 2, 2013 by jflimbach
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[gizzard]

That is pretty much what I remember of the incident... I thought it may have been in Europe. and that old turnbuckle type device is what I found almost stripped out of the nut. I never could figure how it got that bad, unless on a previous drop it had been stressed really bad someway..................Like I said, there certainly are/were a lot of snakes back there to bite us on airdrops, weren't there??????????

Giz

[bobdaley]

Back in the early 70's the only Herks I knew of in Europe were rote Herks at Rhein Main and Moldy Hole. There were a few Talons at Ramstein and a few rescue Herks at Woodbridge and the spooks A-II's at Rhein Main but their rear ends were sealed and they did not drop. So my guess would be a rote crew?

Jim were you in the 1115 MAS at Eglin or in the Test Wing back then?

Bob

[gizzard]

Bob, my fuzzy memory makes me think it possibly was dyess bird.........not sure and somehow I tend to think, after John's posting fired some long dormant neurons, that the guy killed was either a stan/eval, or was a permanent party guy gettin' his quals in. I know I flew a series of drops in '73 for qualification of some airborne troops, I think we were flyin' out of Weisbaden, and the second load was from the Moldyhole aerial port........to be kind, he was less than skilled at it......He was on headset for the checklists for one drop, was rather erratic. We got back on the ground, my AC, Joe Broderick, calls me to the side and tells me he does not want "that &*&*( on headset for another drop...He ain't got a clue.... So that's what I did.............I guess, in all fairness, they didn't get to drop as much as we did, but, stil............

[SEFEGeorge]

Only thing I can ever remember about incidents in the back was at Hickam in a B model. They were testing a new style brake for the recovery winch. They caught the chute and it went in trail as advertised but instead of the brake gradually applying to stop the cable pay out it went full on. This over stressed the cable and it snapped. Took out part of the hog trough, took out 2 throttle cables, hit a back ender in the head (luckily we wore helmets for recoveries since we stated the recovery at 20K). If I remember correctly, #3 & #4 engines went to NTS. Heavy bird, 14 crewmembers, max fuel. Started loosing altitude. FE (Randy Hall if I remember correctly) hit the dump pumps, AC told them to jettison the recovery poles and close up. IFE call to Hickam. Everyone into their chutes, flight deck chutes were our back cushions. Just before bailout bell, leveled off around 2K and limped into Hickam.

I imagine that 14 zoom bags went into the garbage after that. Not enough washing could get those puppies clean.

That's what I remember from 35 years ago.

[jmitch]

Giz I think all the second loads were from modyhole aerial port we eather went to weisbaden or tempelhoulf to drop troops. Out of Weisbaden the armys comand poist was called the white house .Do you remember that .We used to take them on the spaghetti runs staying in Athens for a week, they were fun to go partying with because they didnt get out much.

[gizzard]

yep, remember all that...........went to crete once with one of tem, pretty sharp troop, was really willin' to work.....I had been in tech school same time he was, I think i wasone block behind him...

[jflimbach]

Back in the early 70's the only Herks I knew of in Europe were rote Herks at Rhein Main and Moldy Hole. There were a few Talons at Ramstein and a few rescue Herks at Woodbridge and the spooks A-II's at Rhein Main but their rear ends were sealed and they did not drop. So my guess would be a rote crew?

Jim were you in the 1115 MAS at Eglin or in the Test Wing back then?

Bob

Bob:

I was in the Tactical Airlift branch at the Tactical Air Warfare Center (TAWC) from 1971-76.

Which brings to mind another shining example of government insanity. Prior to about 1967, Tactical Air Recon and Airlift testing were directorates at TAWC. Then, as the Vietnam war was getting intense, the powers that be decided there should be separate centers for Recon and Airlift, so they established same at Shaw AFB, SC (Recon) and Pope AFB, NC, Tactical Airlift Center (TALC). Going from a handful of people in the TAWC directorates, the centers were real empires. Each headed by a BG and having a full technical staff such as photography, combat control, civilian data analysts, secretarial support, and a full blown test squadron with one each, C-130 and bunches of pilots, flight engineers, loadmasters and navigators. I seem to remember that we had around 135 people in TALC when I arrived in 1968.

And we did boatloads of testing of all kinds of things like LAPES, Type 26 CDS Gate, AWADS, -4A Rail system and on and on.

However, in early 1971 another genius at HQ USAF decided that all the test centers needed to be consolidated into TAWC (huh?). So we promptly shut the whole thing down and three of us (two LM and one NAV) PCS'ed to TAWC and reopened the Airlift Directorate there. We hired one more LM from Hurlburt and added a couple of civilian analysts, pilots and navs and were fully manned up with about 20 or so, down from 135, including the typists. Big difference was that we had to task aircraft from the various wings to support our testing and we had a lot more red tape since we were just one small part of a vast enterprise (TAWC).

Now it gets even better. In 1975 MAC took over the C-130s from TAC so TAWC said "Adios, Dudes". MAC re-established the Airlift Center (ALC) at Pope in the same building we left in 1971, adding C-141 and C-5 crews and maintainers as well as C-130. So, in mid-1975, now being the last man standing, I was the sole body to PCS back from TAWC to ALC. What a merry-go-round.

It didn't take me long to verify my perception that MAC was the ultimate triumph of style over substance, so after a year I bailed out to take the job as the first LM in the AMST (later C-17) program office at Wright-Patterson.

MAC had the last laugh, though. In 1980 after I made Chief, I needed to make a move and all that was available was a job in HQ MAC. Four years there convinced me absolutely that my initial assessment of MAC (and especially the HQ) was correct, so I retired earlier than I could have thereby preserving what little sanity I still had at that point.

Edited March 5, 2014 by jflimbach
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[jamesrj]

Wow, great story

[MHeflin]

The turnbuckle incident was back in 75/76. It was a LM from Dyess, who I went through LM school at Sheppard with in 74. Can't remember his name, but he was in the class ahead of mine.

He went out to fly a local CDS and during preflight had difficulty adjusting the turnbuckle and subsequently dipped it in some hydraulic oil. This was prior to, but ultimately led to cotter pins being installed, so during the mission the vibrations caused the turnbuckle to slowly unwind/loosen. He unfortunately choose to connect his harness to the anchor cable, in order to facilitate an easier transition back to snag the static line after the drop (in fairness it was considered an acceptable "technique" at that time.

Well at Green Light the Load, the cable and the Load all departed the aircraft.

The A-frame story was prior to 74, because it was used over and over by our Sq. airdrop instructors (prior to the full-blown, formal schoolhouse for all set-up; back then only the Herk guys going overseas went to the RTU and those staying Stateside were trained locally) to reinforce why we should wear our crash hats.

Phil Zurcher, A.K.A. Magnum G.I. (A1C who within several days of arriving @ RMAB turns up on base driving a brand new Ferrari he'd purchased down in Munich, exactly like the one on the TV show.... but that's another story) was down in Morocco in about 85/86 dropping Moroccan grunts. One went out, his static line failed to activate his main, he was being towed, he panicked and pulled his reserve. Well when it deployed it severed the anchor cable and pulled the A-frame out of the ceiling. Luckily Phil had positioned himself on the ramp, aft of the A-frame and slightly away from the cable, but still at some point during the process of destruction, the severed cable whipped around, cut a deep gouge down the top and front of Phil's helmet and would have taken out his eye if he hadn't had his visor down.

Oh and obviously the Moroccan jumper didn't survive the sudden stop.

[bobdaley]

I saw that SRA Michael S. Foster a loady fell from aircraft 74-1668 at YPG on 14 July 77

Could that be the one?

Bob

[MHeflin]

Bob I think you're on it. That is the name and 1668 was definately a Dyess aircraft. My recollection of the year and specific location was a bit off. A consequence I fear of peering back through the mists of time.