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My initial instructor upgrade ride at LRF by CMSGT Larsen if I remember correctly. After the flight during the question/deer-in-the-headlight session he asked me what was the hardest system for the Phase I students (I was assigned to the 16th TATS). Not really thinking first I answered the prop system. He then asked me to explain the prop system to him. :eek:

One I was briefed on was a ride given at LRF. No notice, O-dark 30, FE and evaluator showed up at aircraft, no crew chief and no power on bird. FE cranked up the power cart and applied power to bird without checking forms first. Q-3 off the git-go for safety.

I always made sure I did a complete briefing - just follow checklists, etc. Never asked questions during "busy" times. Gave the examinee breathing space and "rest" periods.

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All I can say about check rides..............CMSGT Vernon Devitt, the Gray Ghost, any 316th TAW loady will remember him!!!!!!!!!!!! You would NOT pass a check ride completely with him. Always corrective action, mostly based on trivia and chickenshit questions, but, at least IMHO, you sure as hell came knowin' more than you did goin' in.............................I had a tac checkride with him, heavy drop, and I called a no drop just before twenty minute warning, when i started hearin' a slapping on the side of the plane,HF antenna had broken off the front mount and somehow was hitting the fuselage. he acts real pissed when the AC agrees, turns us around, we go back to langley, get it fixed somehow, off we go, drop the load, i get wrung out on post flight orals, and then just as we are finishing, he says " about callin' that no drop, why?" I says i did not know what was on the outside, if the wire would get into the ramp and door, or the laod or whatever, and i didn't think it was justifiied just to get a check ride done." He glares at me and then says "" Good call."""" Of course I ended up with about four days of "corrective actions" on trivial stuff that we cared manuals to look up, instyead of memorize, but I betcha I would probably never got off the ground ever again if I had ignored that problem..... Devitt was TAC Stan/eval if I remember right, and he passed away just maybe three years or so.

giz

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I've posted this before, but.... Once got a check ride from Bill Knox at Hickam. I went there from the 16th, so I was the use to asking all the questions. Anyway, it was question after question when ever the chance arose - from the ice impact panels on the side of the plane, 1st aid kits, windows, pressures, limits, warning lights, and other obscure info. Finally about half way through the ride I asked Bill that if I could ask him a question that he couldn't answer then the check ride would be over and his questioning stop. He agreed. hahahaha. I asked him how many times a minute the tail lights on a B model flash. He said 85. Nope. That's on E's. On B's it alternates 40 for the white and 40 for the amber. Tada! Qual 1.

I always based my evals on the FE and his experience. A 500 hr FE was different than a 1,500 hr FE. Same basic check ride but additional questions were based on his experience level. Sure he could say "it's in the book," etc., but if you had the hours you ought to have better knowledge than just "in the book" answers. Otherwise additional system and manual questions would be forthcoming.

Once had a FE at the Dorf who said he was a 2,500 hr FE. Since I knew him from LRF where he flew a lot as a scanner in the 16th before becoming a FE. So I asked him that on his next eval should I "grade" him as a 2,500 hr FE or a 500 hr FE? He thought better about his statement.

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My first numbered AF check ride was with SMSGT Larry Hogue (22nd AF) during an ASET visit. I had about 300 hours at the time and Larry had a rep for being tough. My own people had me scared I would fail. Larry came out to the plane after I went out and introduced himself "Hi, I'm Larry Hogue, everyone says I'm an asshole but I'm really not". He wasn't. He was thorough but fair. He based my check ride on my hours. I got a Q1 with positive comments from him. Playing "stump the dummy" IMO is BS. If you didn't know more than me you wouldn't be giving me the check ride. Check rides should be based on flying hours, time in the seat, and whether a basic, instructor, or evaluator.

I was getting a check ride with CMSGT Chick Anderson (22nd AF) and he asked why there was a one minute warm up period on the APU? I went blank. I knew it but had a brain fart. He said well ......? I said "because the -1 says to". Then I remembered thermal expansion so I said that. He was laughing his ass off and called me a smartass. He asked me what was the max differenttial pressure to jettison the crew door. I drew a blank. He was certain I knew the answer so he asked "what kind of oil does your mom use on her sewing machine". I said " sewing machine oil". He said " you dumbass, it's 3in1 oil so the answer is 3.1 inmg"! I offered to bring in the can of Singer sewing machine oil the next day! True story.

When you get bombarded with questions be patient. The answer is in there with most troops.

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Giz I was on a check ride with the gray ghost as second loadmaster with a guy by the name of Dale Watson doing airdrops . I thought everything was going fine ,about halfway thrue the riging when he walked up and said (sit down and shut up Im not here for you, Watson is getting the check ride I already know what you know) needless to say I sat down.

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In 1974 at Clark I was having my first ck ride as a new Co-pilot. Mike Mobley (?) was the old head Capt FE. He told me that "the reg's and our Commander say I have to come out every so often & tell him that I saw the good job that you're doing, that we've heard about". Or something like that. Boy was I relieved. It really set the stage for a smooth ride. I tried to remember that and say something like it every time I gave a ck ride. I agree, "stump the dummy" is a waste of time. Just talk briefly about a few things you saw during the ride and work some light systems in with it. Oh, never give a ck-ride (if you can help it) when another FE is on board doing the same. Enjoy & "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you".

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Not C-130, but one time, I was in Anchorage on the DC-10 & a fed came up to give me a ramp check. He told me he was gonna ask questions until I couldn't answer one. Well, just behind the nose radome there are 3 drain holes for an avionics compartment (I think). He asked me what they were for and my reply was, "Don't know." Ramp check finished!!!

Also, a good FE (flight examiner) doesn't give a check ride, he administers one.

Don R.

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Don't be afraid to call out an examinee that outranks you.

One of the hardest check rides I ever administered was to a CMSgt FE (a basic FE in the -130) who had come from 141s. He might have known everything there was to know about a -141, but his knowledge of the -130 was commensurate with someone with a couple of hundred hours in that particular airplane. I think he figured he'd "get by" on his stripes and toilet bowl on his wings. He was wrong. He ended up getting a Q-2, and a "gentle" ass-chewing by me in the debrief, reminding him that I expected more and that other people did too. His face turned every shade of red in the spectrum, but he knew he'd sucked that night and better step it up.

As an evaluator, people pay attention to you, both on and off-duty. Remember that when you're TDY and someone wants to "break the rules."

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Giz I was on a check ride with the gray ghost as second loadmaster with a guy by the name of Dale Watson doing airdrops . I thought everything was going fine ,about halfway thrue the riging when he walked up and said (sit down and shut up Im not here for you, Watson is getting the check ride I already know what you know) needless to say I sat down.

That was kinda like what he did with me. i think the other load was TSGT Koch, who wrote my proficiency eval. anyway he pretty much was told just be there. Aftrerward, he told me 'Boy, devitt really did one on you. You did real good, though' Then later Koch did my proficency report, gave me all big marks but one that kept me from gettin' pro-pay. I asked him what I needed to do to improve, he says" Oh, you are doin' a great job, but I couldn't rate you all 8's or whatever they were, because that way you couldn't show any improvement on the next ones.""""" cost me like $50 a month or whatever the pro pay was............. Still haven't figured THAT one out.....................

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One of the hardest check rides I ever administered was to a CMSgt FE (a basic FE in the -130) who had come from 141s. He might have known everything there was to know about a -141, but his knowledge of the -130 was commensurate with someone with a couple of hundred hours in that particular airplane. QUOTE]

How true that statement is!!! In the early 1980's, the AFSC shredout was dropped and all FE's were "equal," no seperate jet, turboprop or recip differences. In the 37th at Rhein Main, we started getting some very bitter C-141 and C-5 FE's who had never had an overseas assignment. Most had spent their entire careers at bases like Dover, McGuire Travis, etc. They had always been on a crew that consisted of 2 FE's. The majority had an extremely hard time adjusting to the C-130 world. I had the difficult task of failing a MSgt with close to 10,000 hours on his second try at the annual open book test. He wound up working in maintenance control for the rest of his assignment. A very uncomfortable situation for both of us.

Don R.

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The very first check ride of my flying career was the worst. After flying with the same instructor and proving what I knew to him things were going pretty smooth, then when my check ride came for mission qual at Little Rock I got the wing stan/eval evaluator. He grilled me about limits and nomenclature about the weirdest things on that airplane. Then when we were flying he was asking me things about navigation and timing to test my SA. At the time I was brand new and could barely keep up with the airplane when we were flying straight and level, much less on multiple airdrops with an EF watching me. I thought for sure I'd failed that ride and didn't know anything. In the debrief he said that I was doing pretty good so he started asking me questions to show me what I'll have to start thinking about later in my career when I get better. That wasn't very nice! He scared me into thinking I had failed while he was really trying to help build my SA.

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I was part of the cadre of C-130 IFEs who were chosen to validate the Performance School for C-130 guys back in '79. take 34 IFEs from AF wide and put them together at Altus. Talk about an 8 week party. That was a preliminary step to making all FEs the same, C shredout. Even though the next class of basic FEs were going to use a calculator in the school, we had to use the slide rule. There were some pretty frustrated older IFEs to be sure. Luckily there was sufficient "lubricating fluid" after class. even with being treated like red-headed step-children we all made it through the course and got our C shredout.

After that, the 7 of us from LRF were tasked with taking the 8 week course and condense it to 2 weeks and then to be taught to C-130 FEs. Took us about a year to complete it and get it approved. Then we taught the classes, each taking a different segment. Luckily I never had a swept-wing retread as a student or evaluatee. Well, guess I did. But he was a 141 guy that wanted Hercs and to get back to Alaska since he was up here before during the pipeline era, maintenance I think it was.

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Had a check ride with Bitchin Butch Orend, at the start of the check he hands me 10 pennies and says every time you f*ck up you have to pay for it, if you go broke you fail. Boy I had a death grip on those pennies.

As for a philosophy on administering checkrides, base the required knowledge level on who the evaluee is (ie basic, instructor, etc.) and realize that there is a ladder to knowledge levels and some folks are always going to be on the bottom of that latter knowledge wise and as long as they can fumble their way through the books for most items its going to be a Q1 whereas an instructor had better know most things in the book without direct reference to the books.

My longest ground eval (about 16-20 hours of it), I thought he was just busting my chops for the hell of it but a month later I was headed to instructor school!!

George, do you remember Ron Hennion? I think he was in that course evaluation with you.

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Giz, I remember Dale and Devitt. Never had Devitt give me a check ride, but he was always feared by most. I remember he wrote a sequence of a heavy airdrop that we all had to memorize. I bet I could recite most of it today, and it's been over forty years. Wonder we're Dale is now?

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Giz, I remember Dale and Devitt. Never had Devitt give me a check ride, but he was always feared by most. I remember he wrote a sequence of a heavy airdrop that we all had to memorize. I bet I could recite most of it today, and it's been over forty years. Wonder we're Dale is now?

Yeah, Pat, I remember that sequence list, every damn thing from the electrons turnin' the green light on to each safety and restraint ties breakin' to the full extension of the suspesnion lines and the release carridge firin', the release spinner rotatin, to the collapse of the honeycomb when the pallet hit the ground............ I wonder if any other wings had that to contend with, or was it just our fortune to be at TAC headquarters??????????

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I had to go through Altus in '80. There was an FE insrtuctor from LRF getting some info for starting the training at LRF but I don't remember his name. Pat Nash was in my class. Pat was the FE on the Nashville A model that crashed at Ft. Campbell on landing.

The date on my completion certificate is 14 Dec 79.

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Had a check ride with Bitchin Butch Orend, at the start of the check he hands me 10 pennies and says every time you f*ck up you have to pay for it, if you go broke you fail. Boy I had a death grip on those pennies.

As for a philosophy on administering checkrides, base the required knowledge level on who the evaluee is (ie basic, instructor, etc.) and realize that there is a ladder to knowledge levels and some folks are always going to be on the bottom of that latter knowledge wise and as long as they can fumble their way through the books for most items its going to be a Q1 whereas an instructor had better know most things in the book without direct reference to the books.

My longest ground eval (about 16-20 hours of it), I thought he was just busting my chops for the hell of it but a month later I was headed to instructor school!!

George, do you remember Ron Hennion? I think he was in that course evaluation with you.

Dan, about now the only name I can remember is mine. Lynn Hebdon, ? Couch, and a guy from LRF that drove his S-10 p/u with a huge camper on it (almost got blown over by hi winds there).

Got a class pic around here somewhere, if I can only find it.

Only other names I remember from there are the 2 women I dated there, Gail and Barbara (their last names not used in case it might upset current spouses). Ah, being single and TDY for 8 weeks...

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  • 4 weeks later...

My philosophy on administering evals was pretty simple . . . be safe, know what you need to know (wasn't a big fan of endless questions to prove I know more than you, that's for the stag bar and besides, if I'm an evaluator, I SHOULD know more than you). One thing I wouldn't tolerate was stupidity. I busted an ILM once for preflighting -4A rails using a -4 checklist . . . I have no idea where he found it, but he swore to me it was the right checklist. That was just stupid.

kim

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Dan, about now the only name I can remember is mine. Lynn Hebdon, ? Couch, and a guy from LRF that drove his S-10 p/u with a huge camper on it (almost got blown over by hi winds there).

Got a class pic around here somewhere, if I can only find it.

Only other names I remember from there are the 2 women I dated there, Gail and Barbara (their last names not used in case it might upset current spouses). Ah, being single and TDY for 8 weeks...

I knew Lynn Hebdon, he was 16SOW examiner (CMSGT) the last few years I was flying. Gotta say I didn't really care for him too much.

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I knew Lynn Hebdon, he was 16SOW examiner (CMSGT) the last few years I was flying. Gotta say I didn't really care for him too much.

Not surprised that he made Chief. I didn't care for him or his ways. Only cared about what was good for himself and didn't care one iota for his FEs. Biggest ass-kisser, yes man I ever saw when it came to dealing with higher ups. One he upgraded Randy Weisner (?) before me as a kiss-ass move, my attitude towards him changed a lot. Not to insubordination levels but tense. He even came to intramural bowling one day at EDF to talk with me. My "chief of staff" stopped him and told him to discuss business at work.

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My philosophy on administering evals was pretty simple . . . be safe, know what you need to know (wasn't a big fan of endless questions to prove I know more than you, that's for the stag bar and besides, if I'm an evaluator, I SHOULD know more than you). One thing I wouldn't tolerate was stupidity. I busted an ILM once for preflighting -4A rails using a -4 checklist . . . I have no idea where he found it, but he swore to me it was the right checklist. That was just stupid.

kim

Kim,

That was exactly my philosophy! I'd usually ask a few questions during the preflight and then sit back on the bunk and watch the examinee do his job. The poor guy was already pretty nervous with a FEFE hovering over his shoulder. No "stump the dummy" questions -- that was for after the ride in the stag bar over a few beers. I actually learned s few things sometime while administering check rides.

Don R.

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