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Dataman19

T56-A15 vs T56-A16 Engines?

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I am new to this forum..

Retired USAF (Combat Loggie)

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We are in the process of selecting a C-130 from the D.M. AFB Bone Yard

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We have been given 160 Airframe numbers to choose from - Note: they aren't all there(???)

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My point is that two that we have tentatively settled upon have no Engines or Engine Housings....

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We have to supply: Engines, Housing's and Radio Gear (actually anything needed to get the Planes ferried to the California Depot)...

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Or we have to "truck them to CA" - which is a way no-go option (California doesn't like or entertain the thought of trucking C-130's across the state).

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My Question is about the Turbines:::

The Navy C-130T uses an Allison T58-A16 Engine Power Plant, The Air Force uses the T56-A15 Power Plant...

*** Aren't these the same engines? Or better question: What is the actual difference?

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Last of all::: Anyone know where I can buy/Borrow/Rent four engines?

I also need Propellers ....

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Five of the aircraft we did surveye still had the original APUs installed (all wrapped up and all the lines filled with the preservatives - but still there (Don't know if they work or not - but time will tell).

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Now we have to make a determination on which two we want to select.

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Which Brings me to the C130H series (series 2, 2.5, or 3??). I never knew it could be so complicated. I thought a C-130H was a C-130H... But apparently I am mistaken. Can anyone supply a realistic guide or Tail number list so that we can select a best airframe option? Is there such a guide/list? ARAMAC will tell me if "I give them the Tail Number" but that so far has taken an enormous amount of time running around, back and forth. They tell me "Whatever Airframe we pick - I can submit a Historical Document Request and get the entire Airframe History - for a price, naturally.

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I need to finalize this selection by April-May or forfeit my DOD/ARAMAC Purchase Deposits. (which is good until May 30th, 2015).

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Apparently they like people to drive out - point and pay.... When i asked what would happen if the Airframe we select has a major defect that would preclude it being brought back to air worthy status - they just laughed and said "we have hundreds - just get another one". But the Contract requires that I make a "specific" selection and pay the balance upon receipt of the bill/contract" Nothing is said about parts swapping etc.... So I am naturally concerned with anything to do with Government Surplus Sales documentation...

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Our End-Use Certs have all been approved and we are cleared to proceed.

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We have approval to take possession of one Aircraft/Airframe (aka: weapon System) and all that it entails (I guess that means what ever is there at the time). We will be responsible for Demil at DOD/ARMAC's Direction.... They have assured me we do not have to cut the Aircraft up - just take out the Crypto Equip, etc...(strange statement - when you consider all the KY's are already gone - there are just blank panel holes where they used y to be. But hey, You never know, we might find one that has the gear - so I understand that issue...).

Then we are tentatively approved for a second Airframe once the first Aircraft is FAA accepted and Certified (after the expansive Depot Retrofit...)

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The ARAMAC Folks are gracious enough to provide workspace to outfit the birds for ferry flight out - and power for tools, equip... etc...... They will even provide Aircraft Tug to tow the aircraft out of the yard. They have indicated that they can allow us to use an Engine Crane/or 10K AT Forklift to mount the engines.

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The Prep Area has scaffolding, but it is primarily for ARAMAC Personnel use - but is available on a part-time use basis when not being actually used.

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My dellima is: Aircraft Engines, Avionics, Radio Comms for the Ferry Flight.

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The Aircraft is going to get a new Wing Box Assembly, New Wings and a new Flight Deck.... We are discussing the options of outfitting the birds with the new Rollss Royce Power Plant used in the C-1`30J aircraft.

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Everything is going to get redone at the California Depot Facility. So anything we buy for the ferry flight will become "spares" which may or may not ever be used again.

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Reviving two Birds will be too over whelming - so we are only doing one in FY2015. The second will be done in FY2016 or FY2017.

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Today I an researching what tools and equipment will be needed. Technical Orders/Tech Manuals will have to be ordered once we settle on the two Tail/Serial numbers... That much I have ascertained is "Airframe specific" because I have learned over the past two months - any one C-130H is not the same as another C-130H.

So once we determine whether or not we can locate Engines and Radios (I don't really think Radios and Comms will be as difficult as Engines/Power plants and Props...

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You would think that Engines and Props would be in over abundance - especially since there are so many Herls out there. But apparently, that is not the case.

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Can anyone help here?

Anyone want a job? We still need two ferry Pilots and a Navigator/Load master for the ferry flight.

Having three people who could also work on prepping for the ferry flight would also be a plus...

Next week i am interviewing a few folks in Tucson, AZ who worked as Aviation mechanics/C-130 Air Crew Maintenance. One worked on the T56 series Turbines in the engine/power plant shop as well....

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Like I said - can anyone help here? (602) 754-2289

daver01a@yahoo.com

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There are four decent -7s at the base formerly known as Kulis, up in AK. They were good when we brought that plane up there...seems like no one wants it now. Of course....I wouldn't try to crank those things up without rebuilding them first...sitting too long.

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There are no C-130H's in AMARG except the 5 Norwegian ones and I bet they are not offering those.

Lots of C-130E's though.

Bring lots of money because AMARG charges for everything and they charge a lot.

If you can get someone who knows the ins and outs of AMARG, you will be better off.

You might see if Fritz Wester and his crew from TBM want to take on the job of restoring one to flying shape.

They also do engine and prop work, and have flight crew.

Bob

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AMP Test FE

Kulis, Anchorage Aviation Museum turned down 64-0541. Too costly and takes up too much space.

Now owned by Elmendorf, still on the ramp at Anchorage, I think

Bob

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AMP Test FE

Kulis, Anchorage Aviation Museum turned down 64-0541. Too costly and takes up too much space.

Now owned by Elmendorf, still on the ramp at Anchorage, I think

Bob

Bob, send me contact info - this is interesting.

..

Dave

Sent by private message

bob

Edited by bobdaley

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There are no C-130H's in AMARG except the 5 Norwegian ones and I bet they are not offering those.

Lots of C-130E's though.

Bring lots of money because AMARG charges for everything and they charge a lot.

If you can get someone who knows the ins and outs of AMARG, you will be better off.

You might see if Fritz Wester and his crew from TBM want to take on the job of restoring one to flying shape.

They also do engine and prop work, and have flight crew.

Bob

The Norwegian Planes are offered.... We are considering them, only because they are actually fly away (aka: Complete).

The H-models we looked at are at Maranna. But - yes there are H-models, but they are not where the E's are at present. Their listing is out of date because three arrived yesterday and are being processed.....

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This has been a paper nightmare - but all those years as an Air Force Programs manager has atught me - Beureacrats (not good at spelling this late in the evening) are a hardy bunch and like to fight you and miss direct you any way they can, and will avidly do so with gusto.... I even had one tell me that the SINGARS is not UHF Capable (Dah..... SINGARS Development "was MY" program - since when has it changed???)....

Just like the FAA telling me that the L-100 is a totally different Aiframe and does not share the TC Classifications with the C-130. I faxed him the giant book that I have from the Last five Lockheed-Martin Certs Paperwork for the C-130 and L-100 fleet that show that to be an incorrect statement. is reply was that the C-130 is a limited capability Cargo plane and was part of the Nuclear Force - so that makes it a questionable aircraft.

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I respectfully point out my statement in the second paragraph - people in government like to yank chain. Calling them out only pisses them off... Oh well. By the time I am done there will be a lot of pissed off monkeys out there.

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Your statement about AMARG is spot on. Even their bosses at WR/ALC were amazed when they read the exception paperwork. All they could say was "this isn't possible - how'd you get this?" The AMARG folks made we wait around for a week while they verified the documents (dah... I'm stupid - I guess they didn't realize that "I Know it is in ""their"" computer system). Like I said, they like to yank your chain. I let them know that I was aware of their tactics when I went back. I first called their boss at Warner Robbins - who called them to tell them I was on my way down from Phoenix, and told them to quit yanking my chain.

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But they still aren't as cooperative as they have been known to be in the past. Me - I don't care. I have paperwork and I'm gonna be around through FY2016 - so they just need to get mad, get over it and get glad....

... I have to report back to the Armed Services Sub Committee on the progress and my opinion of how this is being handled. I would love to be the fly on the wall when they get that eye opener. This is the part of Government work that I miss - making do bees aware of their mistakes.

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I still contend that Public Law 81-152 is being ignored and they are not even making a reasonable effort to even try and comply with it. But that is an argument for the after action report and assessment. They have an inspection coming up later this year - I would guess that in itself will be an eye opener. My only concern is the inspection is not an actual inspection - it is done by their Boss organization - so in my world I would call that a "staff assist", but they want to call it an inspection. Tomato Tomahto... either way.

...Dave

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Having watched AMARG from the outside and never having had to work with them, I can only say it is an amazing POS.

No one wants to do anything and if they have to do something, it will cost lots more than is remotely reasonable.

I think part of the attitude is if we don't cooperate and we charge ridiculous amounts people will just leave us alone.

The other part of their attitude was shaped by the USFS scandal of a few years ago. Now unless it is FMS or part of NMUSAF it is going to the scrapper. No hassles from Congress, no hassles from Lockgreed or the other contractors, since used aircraft won't compete with their new and very expensive aircraft.

Unless you have very heavy backing it will be a very long and expensive haul.

I don't know anything about H's at Marana.

As to H's at AMARG as of 15 January, they have no slicks except the Norwegians. They do have a few other models based on H's

4 AC-130H's destned for scrap, 2 USCG HC-130H's already mostly parted out, 7 HC-130P's and 14 MC-130P's, 2 KC-130R's, and an LC-130R.

There are 5 or 6 ex LRF H's floating around, maybe what is at Marana?

Talk to Fritz Wester, he has a lot of experience dealing with AMARG, Lockheed and the FAA.

Good Luck

Bob

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I agree with your assessment of AMARG....

Before I retired they were all nicey nice... Then when I became a Civilian they became snooty and officious....

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But they answer to the Program manager at Warner Robbins. This is the person that "actually owns the C-130 fleet" AMARG doesn't own anything, they are just caretakers.....

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Today I talked with the Operations Manager of a company that owns the largest C-130 Fleet in private hands.... He is skeptical that I will ever obtain any bird, much less the ones I have been granted ..... I will believe it when I see the bird leave the runway,,, Until then I'm not holding my breath.... But right now we are closer than anyone else that I know of (outside a Government agency) to getting one - make that three.

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Gilen Beau in Georgia is working with Henry and they are hashing out the final Details with the C-130 Fleet manager. Gilen Beau is money - Henry has been a C-130 Scrap Dealer since the 1960's - strike that - Henry Sr has been, Henry Jr took over from his dad about twelve years ago.

....

But up until some Government Monkey figures out how to pull the plug - I'm keeping my hopes up.

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Updates: We have located the three planes we want.... Problem is ARMARG is being.... well" ARMARG....

Have all the Paperwork...

Have dotted all the "i's" and crossed all the "t's".

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Still cannot pull the planes?????

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I want to thank the parties who protested so adamantly that "we were being given - special treatment". I guess no one who currently owns a C-130 wants anyone else to have one. A few have gone so far as to call the GAO and claim misappropriation. But the paperwork is valid and legal - yet ARMAG claims they have to destroy the aircraft, and have no intention of releasing anything... Like I said : "They are being ARMAG"

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Meanwhile we are persuing the Angola L-100's. At least "they" can't be bought.... or can they?

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I still intend to pull all three C-130's from Tucson, AZ. I just need to sit back and watch ARMAG spin their wheels. I really don't understand the problem, even the C-130 Fleet management office at WR-ALC conceeds that we have the authority and legal paperwork to pull the planes.

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ARMAG is a custodial agency, not the owning agency. They don't own anything. Yet they "think they do".

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We are pushing to pull the first bird in April...... But first the folks at ARMAG need crystalectomy's so they can see out of their stomach's (email me and I will tell you what a crystallectomy is - I think it will tick off the moderators if I post it here...).

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I want to close by thanking all who have emailed me and talked with me on the phone. You know who you are. Your advice and help has not gone unnoticed or without consideration. Thanks gang - BUT I AM GOIN TO GET MY THREE PLANES!!!!!

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To the rich individual that caused all the stink when you got wind of this project - Oh well..... I;m still going to get my planes in spite of all your efforts to misdirect and mislead the congressional members who you are lobbying so vehemently..... Hope you spend a lot more money...

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Maybe if you asked nicely I would have shared my paperwork trail so you could get a few. Now I wouldn't share anything with you.... And all your money won't be able to make me.... Your Fredom of Information Act request is sitting on my desk - un acted upon. Too bad I'm not a Government Gabnecy, then maybe I would be required to Reply - But I'm not a governemnt agency - so I am not even going to give you the courtesy of a reply. If you read it here - be aware - I am not replying.

... BLEWWWWd (that is me sticking my tougue out).

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To the members of this forum - I humbly apologize for this last paragraph.... I just felt had to say it.

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There are too many wealthy people in this country who feel they are the only ones that matter. These are the people who sent their jobs to china with the excuse that "they could make more money"

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These are also the same people who feel that poor Americans should just get by on welfare and like it.

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What we need in America are Rich People who are investing in our county and building factories and plants to provide jobs for the people - not stuffing their money off shore to avoid paying taxes on it.

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My soap box is over loaded.

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Maybe when I get the first Bird back from the California Depot I should fly over the house of the person so avadly lobbying to keep me from getting these C-130's and dump a load of manure on his house.

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But then - I truly believe the FAA would have a dim view of such an action - so probably won't. (get it? I said I probably won't......LOL)

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Regards

Dr Mason

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So Dr Mason, have you gotten your C-130's from DM yet ? It's been a year since your last post. I DO hope you are successful in getting these birds out of the bone yard before they are turned into beer cans. Bill

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http://www.arcticwarrior.net/2016/03/04/static-display-c-130-hercules-heads-indoors-for-refurbishment/

According to this article, the C-130 located at Elmendorf was recently moved into a paint facility to be sanded and repainted.  No tail # listed in the article.  Only problem is they were not going back to the European 1 (light green, dark green, dark gray camo scheme) to the Equipment Excellence (gray).  It's suppose to be finished and repositioned in April sometime.

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The one at Elmendorf being repainted in Ugly Elephant grey is 64-0533.

The other one abandoned at Anchorage Int'l but now in the custody of Elmendorf (owned by the AF Museum) is 64-0541.

Bob

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I don't think the aircraft 0541 was really significant, but the AF Museum has control of almost all ex USAF aircraft donated to museums and displays. 541 was supposed to go to the Alaska Aviation Museum, but the museum did not have the space for it or the money to keep it up. Since AF Museum still held ownership of it, they just transferred custody  to the nearest AFB, Elmendorf.

I'll see if I can attach the URL for the Museum's holdings.

Bob

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Portals/7/documents/other/aircraft_on_loan_by_description.pdf

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Just like the FAA telling me that the L-100 is a totally different Aiframe and does not share the TC Classifications with the C-130. I faxed him the giant book that I have from the Last five Lockheed-Martin Certs Paperwork for the C-130 and L-100 fleet that show that to be an incorrect statement.

 

Yet the TO 13-130A-3 and the SMP 583 have different criteria for repairs, one example are the wing leading edges; the TO calls for two rows on the doubler, and the SMP specifies four...  Depends on the inspector you are talking to...

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I am working on a FMS case for the Navy/Marine Corps and I am trying to make sure that I have all of the info about the T56-A-15 and the T56-A-16 engine differences.  One of our countries wants to convert -16 engines into -15 engines.

The info that I already know is:

The T-16-A-16 is made from more corrosion resistant material

The fuel controls are different:  I did see someone mention that a -15 FC can not be used on a -16 engine.  they will fit but won't work.. Is that a true statement?

The -16 has a beefed up RGB, the front case is thicker

The -16 does not have the external oil scavenge filter.

 

Do I have all of them or am I missing anything.  I think there is a difference in the generators also but I can't remember. 

I appreciate anyone who can help me out.

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The -16s run the 40/50 KVA Generator, but its on the lower pad of the RGB. The -15s run 40KVA generators on the upper pad.

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