Static Line Retriever Winch

[DOUGHNUT]

Early in 1966, the Lockheed Tech. Rep. embedded withour squadron operating A Models, advised that a problem had arrisen in the operation of the static line retriever winch, and the company was keen to hear of any potential solutions.

The reported problem involved a paratrooper remaining attached to the end of his static line, and the retriever winch being unable to draw the static lines, with dangling body, back into the aircraft. Aparantly, the aditional load (weight plus aerodynamic) caused the retriever winch line to whip abnormally and trigger the Rewind Limit Switch on the carriage of the winch, releasing the Rewind Relay. Repeated toggling of the Rewind Selector switch merely repeated the sequence until the excessive load was released. It was never explained whether this was achieved by slashing the static line and droping the paratrooper (?) or landing with him still attached (!!).

Can anyone clarify this story, and more importantly, the solution introduced?

I am aware of the recent thread on this site reference electrical problems, and another 'Towed Paratrooper' one on .armyparatrooper.org going back to 2007, but this much earlier incident was not mentioned, and no remedies were mentioned.

[SergF]

I'm just an APG guy, but I remember before jumps the crew and jumpmasters had a briefing(same one every time it seemed like) and they would mention if dude was unconscious to cut him away, if was conscious to reel him in. I wonder if that had anything to do with it? Can any loadies elaborate?

[Skip Davenport]

I'm just an APG guy, but I remember before jumps the crew and jumpmasters had a briefing(same one every time it seemed like) and they would mention if dude was unconscious to cut him away, if was conscious to reel him in. I wonder if that had anything to do with it? Can any loadies elaborate?

I think you got that wrong. I used to brief if consicious and he gives the signal hand on reserve or on head and the green light was on we would cut him away. Otherwise consicious or unconscious we would pull him in. I don't know of anyone that actually pulled a jumper in.

[SergF]

Thanks. I should have paid more attention. :D

[Railrunner130]

I've heard where the winch itself had a perpensity to come off the wall during the retrieval process. That was temporarily solved by (I think) routing a piece of 1,000 lb. so that it wouldn't come off the wall. A perminent fix was to better secure it to 245 and add a slip clutch.

[DOUGHNUT]

I think you got that wrong. I used to brief if consicious and he gives the signal hand on reserve or on head and the green light was on we would cut him away. Otherwise consicious or unconscious we would pull him in. I don't know of anyone that actually pulled a jumper in.

You seem to have had a direct personal connection with the winch. Do you recall the structure holding the rewind limit switch? Was it a coil spring/wobble plate arrangement, or a rigid sleeve with the switch on the side? what model Herc were you operating on and during what years?

Edited June 22, 2009 by DOUGHNUT
Detail correction.

[Skip Davenport]

You seem to have had a direct personal connection with the winch. Do you recall the structure holding the rewind limit switch? Was it a coil spring/wobble plate arrangement, or a rigid sleeve with the switch on the side? what model Herc were you operating on and during what years?

I flew "E's" from 1970 -73 then Talon1's (64 E modles) from 1978-1992 -- I am not a LM but a pilot. I was only talking of the briefing we/I gave the jumpers not the rewind limit switch. I do know that the arm that heald the static line in place for drops used to break on almost all BLU-82 drops.

[Dan Wilson]

I know on Shadows we kept a manual winch stored in the cargo door, don't remember what it was called but it was a complete retrieval system (I think).

Come on you current Shadow guys, refresh my leaking brain on this one.

Dan

[Kwrong1]

In the late 90's their was also an issue of the slip clutch failing to early and was discovered by trooper getting hung up. We had to set up a pull test system to op's check the retriever about 50% were failing. They also went on to test them in flight using 55 gal. drums and tryed to pull them in. Not sure how they did it was not involved in that process just the op's check.

[SergF]

Along with this, can anyone explain the use of the paratroop retrieval bar? It's on the stantion behind the LWW. I don't remember seeing it on slicks. Our Shadows have them, the Talons don't. I know where it goes when in use and that it's to help 'retrieve'.

[hklm]

You seem to have had a direct personal connection with the winch. Do you recall the structure holding the rewind limit switch? Was it a coil spring/wobble plate arrangement, or a rigid sleeve with the switch on the side? what model Herc were you operating on and during what years?

Hey guys;

I am new to this forum. If you are referring to the Western Gear winch, it would be the spring and spring cup. when the cable was rewound too far it would compress the spring and rotate a plate against the in limit switch.

I just qualified on the J model out of JMATS/48th (Little Rock) and the Able winch seems to be much more efficient.

I was on a trip some years back doing a pers/wedge drop and had a winch get pulled off the wall, thankfully there was type VIII nylon preventing the winch from leaving the aircraft.

[Mikey_G]

I know this thread is a bit old, but perhaps I can provide some insight tosome questions:

Early in 1966, the Lockheed Tech. Rep. embedded withour squadron operating A Models, advised that a problem had arrisen in the operation of the static line retriever winch, and the company was keen to hear of any potential solutions.

The reported problem involved a paratrooper remaining attached to the end of his static line, and the retriever winch being unable to draw the static lines, with dangling body, back into the aircraft. Aparantly, the aditional load (weight plus aerodynamic) caused the retriever winch line to whip abnormally and trigger the Rewind Limit Switch on the carriage of the winch, releasing the Rewind Relay. Repeated toggling of the Rewind Selector switch merely repeated the sequence until the excessive load was released. It was never explained whether this was achieved by slashing the static line and droping the paratrooper (?) or landing with him still attached (!!).

Can anyone clarify this story, and more importantly, the solution introduced?

I am aware of the recent thread on this site reference electrical problems, and another 'Towed Paratrooper' one on .armyparatrooper.org going back to 2007, but this much earlier incident was not mentioned, and no remedies were mentioned.

I don't have a definite answer, however it sounds like the introduction of the cup/spring as well as the slip clutch on the Western Gear winches *could* be the answer.

I'm just an APG guy, but I remember before jumps the crew and jumpmasters had a briefing(same one every time it seemed like) and they would mention if dude was unconscious to cut him away, if was conscious to reel him in. I wonder if that had anything to do with it? Can any loadies elaborate?

I think you got that wrong. I used to brief if consicious and he gives the signal hand on reserve or on head and the green light was on we would cut him away. Otherwise consicious or unconscious we would pull him in. I don't know of anyone that actually pulled a jumper in.

The way we brief it today goes something like this:

Troop door: If it's anything other than the static line (i.e green), it's the jump masters, if it's the static line (i.e. yellow), it's the Loadmasters. Priority in a training environment is to retrieve regardless of the condition of the paratrooper, secondary is to cut. Indication of consciousness is given when the paratrooper maintains a tight body position and has both hands on the reserve, it's also *as briefed* according to our publications.

Ramp and door: Priority is to cut if conscious, secondary is to retrieve.

I've heard where the winch itself had a perpensity to come off the wall during the retrieval process. That was temporarily solved by (I think) routing a piece of 1,000 lb. so that it wouldn't come off the wall. A perminent fix was to better secure it to 245 and add a slip clutch.

Yes, this is true, an alternate method is to use a 5000lb strap also.

In the late 90's their was also an issue of the slip clutch failing to early and was discovered by trooper getting hung up. We had to set up a pull test system to op's check the retriever about 50% were failing. They also went on to test them in flight using 55 gal. drums and tryed to pull them in. Not sure how they did it was not involved in that process just the op's check.

In our books, it tells us that if the slip clutch is failing, determine the cause for the overload, remove it, then continue with rewind procedures. Take that as you will.

Along with this, can anyone explain the use of the paratroop retrieval bar? It's on the stantion behind the LWW. I don't remember seeing it on slicks. Our Shadows have them, the Talons don't. I know where it goes when in use and that it's to help 'retrieve'.

I've never used it, however there are cutouts in the troop door that allow the installation of the bar, it goes under the static lines, there's nothing cosmic about it.

Hey guys;

I am new to this forum. If you are referring to the Western Gear winch, it would be the spring and spring cup. when the cable was rewound too far it would compress the spring and rotate a plate against the in limit switch.

I just qualified on the J model out of JMATS/48th (Little Rock) and the Able winch seems to be much more efficient.

I was on a trip some years back doing a pers/wedge drop and had a winch get pulled off the wall, thankfully there was type VIII nylon preventing the winch from leaving the aircraft.

Pretty much anything other than the Western Gear with and w/out slip clutch are efficent.

IIRC there are 5 different kinds of winches out in the system:

Western Gear w/out slip clutch

Western Gear w/slip clutch

Airresearch

Able Corp

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