DC10FE Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 I know there are people here on this board with experience on varied types of airplanes. Here's my question -- were the SAC KC-135's the only ones with no FE? I know the Andrews 135's had an FE, but what about AWACS, etc? Thanks in advance, Don R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonnyJ Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Tankers had a Pilot, Copilot, Navigator, and a boomer. Dunno about the non-tanker type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wysongj Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 I do not believe any type of KC-135s had an FE. I worked on the E model, with the TF-33 engine for a few years, and there was no such thing. Pilot, Co-pilot, Nav, and a Boomer. I'm not even sure where an FE would have sat if the old A models had one. Mmmmmmm (pondering) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WxFE Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 E-3's have FE's. A good buddy that use to fly Hercs with me left Keesler about 10 years back to become Chief FE for the then new Reserve AWACS unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donwon Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 I worked for LTV Electrosystems in 71&72 for a while we did some mods on the rudder of the KC,s. Now I don't remember going to the flight deck. Don't even remember what mods we did. We did take the rudder off and lay it flat on it's side and work from underneath. Take out hunderds of screws with a speedhandle. It seemed like hundreds anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC10FE Posted August 13, 2009 Author Share Posted August 13, 2009 Thanks, guys. I was pretty sure SAC's tankers were the only ones without an FE. I seem to remember being told many, many years ago that LeMay wanted an all-officer cockpit. I guess that's why there's no FE on the B-47 or B-52 either. That would make the B-36, or maybe the B-50, the last bomber with an FE. Don R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spec13fe Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 Don, SAC, PACAF and USAFE KC/EC 135's had boom operators and no FE's. TAC EC 135's had no boom operators but had FE's until 1972 when they changed to Flight Mechs. MATS/MAC WC 135's had FE's. I flew as an FE on TAC EC135's out of Seymour Johnson AFB, NC for 3 years. We had a seat in the middle like the C130, one aircraft had a seat with a track and the other had a stationary seat, hell on short people. Got some good tdy's in that unit. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC10FE Posted August 19, 2009 Author Share Posted August 19, 2009 Mike, Thanks for the info. I was referring to the 135's where the FE rode side-saddle with an FE panel like the 707's. Don R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEFEGeorge Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 In my day I worked with a few FEs that seemed to ride side-saddle, but not in any aircraft. Could have made an augmented crew......tense-full..... :eek: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spec13fe Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Don, None of the 135 had an engineers panel, the VC137's at Andrews AFB had a panel, they were commerical 707's mod'ed by Boeing for the vip mission. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC10FE Posted August 20, 2009 Author Share Posted August 20, 2009 OK, Mike. Now I got it. Thanks, Don R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Wilson Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Don, None of the 135 had an engineers panel, the VC137's at Andrews AFB had a panel, they were commerical 707's mod'ed by Boeing for the vip mission. Mike I think your wrong on that one, VC-137's were made as 135's and then fancied up for the snooty crowd, they carry an engineer but I dont know why, they sit in the jump seat between the pilots and dont even have any switches or anything, I used to give Al Roman all kinds of crap over getting an assignment over to Ramstein to fly those things. However does Andrews still have VC-137's or did they lease/buy actual 707's? Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbob Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 From my remembrance only a few special equipped -135 types (E8C JSTARS, AFMC's Rainbow Trout, etc) had an FE. Heck even the special mission 737's had an FE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdaley Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 (edited) There was a difference between 135's, never had an FE station but might have carried one for some missions- VIP etc, and the 137's There were only 8 137's. They were 707's and all had FE's Seven were built for the USAF. 58-6970, 71 and 72 were the first. Then USAF got two Presidential 137's 62-6000 and 72-7000. Later on in Ron REagan's time frame they got 2 more 85-6973 and 74. The last one was an airliner bought as a VIP transport for the SOCOM commander 67-19417. All the other EC, VC, RC types were 135's Bob PS the C-18's were also ex airline 707's as are the E-8's Edited August 23, 2009 by bobdaley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC10FE Posted August 23, 2009 Author Share Posted August 23, 2009 (edited) So, Bob, what you're saying is that the C-18, the E-8 and the VC-137 were the only ones with a 707-type FE panel -- the FE's on all the rest were basically flying crew chiefs sitting on a jump seat. I guess that explains why Boeing designated the KC-135 as a 717-100 or 148 depending on the series and the VC-137 as a 707-153 or 353. Of course, we're talking only of the US military. Lots of other countries' military tankers are designated 707-???(KC) -- converted from commercial airliners, Israel, Colombia, Brazil, to name a few. By the way, 67-19417 flew mainly in the colors of British Caledonian as G-AVEX, although it also flew in the livery of Airlift International and St. Lucia Airways in its past. Thanks to all who have responded to my question. Don R. Edited August 23, 2009 by DC10FE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F106A Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 I too read that Gen. LeMay was against putting "E"s in the cockpit but the FAA required an FE in aircraft of similair size so Boeing built the 707 with provisions for an FE. Remember too that the AWACS was built off the 707 model (not the 717 which is the Boeing model number for the 135) and the JSTARS is also 707 based and has FEs. I never knew EC-135s had them though. Good info. Mark (Former KC-135E/R/T Crew Chief, Now a Herk FE) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airnav Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 As much as I love to pull the chain's and rein's of co-pilots (Airspeed Control Officers), I have to take my fishing hat off to those SAC B-52 and KC-135 co-pilots. They were basically FE's in their own right. Their systems knowledge was/is top notch because of the standards that originated from Gen. Lemay, and his promotion standards for lieutenants and junior captains.......they either received an aircraft commander slot and/or a "spot promotion". If they didn't cut it, they were booted out with no remorse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC10FE Posted August 23, 2009 Author Share Posted August 23, 2009 Kurt, I have to agree with you. My next door neighbor at Dyess was a SAC B-52H stan/eval co-pilot. Don R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Wilson Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 AWACS, JSTARS, E-8's are all commercial 707-300's (or higher series) The first E-3A (1675) was actually a converted Argentinian airliner (I think that was the country it was from). People that haven't worked the two different airframes (135vs707) tend to think they are the same, not even close. The 707 guys have it a hell of a lot easier than the poor slobs having to wrench on the 135, service points on the 135 are all over the place and under some ungodly panels with like a billion and a half fasteners (or twelve trillion fasteners under the obamy misadministration, inflation ya know) but the 707 birds are built the same as the commercial aircraft so all the "normal" servicing points are right in the wheel wells and easily accessible (you know, for those quick turns at TWA to keep the cash flowing). Also the 707 is larger than the 135 Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmcdaris Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 The E-8C Jstars is nice to work on I am a Crew Chief on the Jstars and its alot easier to work on than C-130s. I have never worked on the KC-135 but the difference between the Jstar and Herc maintenance wise is staggering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC10FE Posted September 27, 2009 Author Share Posted September 27, 2009 OK, another tanker question. When the KC-135's were re-engined & reskinned, were the airframes zero-timed like the UPS re-engined & reskinned DC-8's? I also found this interesting "fact" in Wikipedia. Yeah, I realize that Wikipedia is not the gospel, but it does provide references/footnotes for this statement. Don R. "KC-135D All four RC-135As were modified to partial KC-135A configuration in 1979.[30][31] They were given a unique designation as they differed from the KC-135A in that they were built with a flight engineers position on the flight deck.[32] The flight engineer's position was removed when the aircraft were modified to KC-135 standards but they retained their electrically-powered wing flap secondary (emergency) drive mechanism and second air conditioning pack which had been used to cool the RC-135As on-board photo-mapping systems.[33] Later re-engined with Pratt & Whitney TF33 engines and a cockpit update to KC-135E standards in 1990.[31][34]" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Wilson Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Speaking of 135's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spec13fe Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Don, I talked with a friend who retired as KC135 Maint. Supt. he said they did not zero the time. Changed the designation from KC135A to KC135E after the re-skin/re-engine mod. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC10FE Posted October 1, 2009 Author Share Posted October 1, 2009 Thanks, Mike. I know the UPS DC-8's were zero-timed after re-engining & reskinning. I guess it was a commercial aviation/FAA thing. Don R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spec13fe Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Don, Did the DC8 get a full reskin? The KC135 only got the lower half reskinned, could be the reason the time was not zeroed. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.