Plaprad Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 I was going thru the H-3 -1 the other night and noticed that there was a TCTO to remove the Engine LCD Gauges on 95-1001 and above ans replace them with analog. I was wondering if that was all of them or just select aircraft and for what reason. Spent some time in the desert with Minnesota a while back with the 95's and I loved those gauges, so much nicer than the analog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMPTestFE Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 From what I understand, it has to do with the company who produced and/or serviced them. I think the company went out of business & the gages all became unsupportable. Thanks for pointing out one of the many benefits/advantages of the AMP mod! Sorry, I couldn't help myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NATOPS1 Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Anyone have any other info on this? If I could get the TCTO number it would be a big help. Navy looking at getting them so if there are issues we need to know about it. Any operators out there that could give some advice/observations on the system? THANKS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmerbm69 Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 they removed because there were not enough in the system to replace them. They are the type 1 guages(torque, rpm, tit, and fuel flow were type one guages. they kept the type 2 guages(all your engine oil guages because there is an abundance of these. I can get a tcto for you. Dave, Call me at work on wednesday and i will give you the number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaprad Posted December 8, 2009 Author Share Posted December 8, 2009 Are they planning on putting them back on once they have enough in the system, or are they just gone forever and ever? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmerbm69 Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Not heard any plans of that they will stay the eay they are now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMPTestFE Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 It will matter not in a couple of years anyway, as all H-3s will be upgraded to the AMP. No more round dials for the engines. My advice to the Navy is obvious...get rid of the old stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bischoffm Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 We were supposed to be knee deep in AMP by now the Air Force has delayed so many problem fixes by saying "AMP will fix it." Baloney convert the gauges we will all be retired by the time AMP gets into full swing(if ever!!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticFox Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 I've got my fingers crossed -amp planes with Electronic valve housings and Np2000. Well a guy can dream can't I? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMPTestFE Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Don't count on the NP2000 AND the AMP happening anytime soon. I guess the LCs are funded for NP2000 and are currently in the process of converting to the electronic valve housing right now. BTW, you can't have NP2000 without the elec valve housings, that's part of the mod. But you can have the elec valve housing without the 8-bladed props. Hey Bischoffm, keep up, the AF has been directed to proceed with AMP without delay by the lawmakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bischoffm Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 I've been listening to the AMP saga for 12 years and still don't believe the plan will ever come to fruition. They longer it takes the less aircraft they have to do. AMP has caused many of wasted man-hours because they would not upgrade any equipment especially the flight deck gauges because AMP will fix it. I HOPE IT DOES COME ABOUT, BUT WHEN, IS THE IMPORTANT QUESTION!!! Delays and AMP go together!! Warner Robins even stopped briefing AMP at the PIWG (probably because they couldn't keep up with the line moving to the right!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NATOPS1 Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 (edited) Lets do the "math" A+M+P= "J" Sorry could not pass that one up... Edited December 11, 2009 by NATOPS1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NATOPS1 Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Thanks Kimmer, got the file. I do remember they (instruments) were split on the overhead on the H-3 or what ever their called..... Nothing like the "new" LCD panels.. Think the Coastee's already have a few installed. Thanks again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Wilson Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 I really hate the idea of LCD indicators, I know way back when when the started with fuel indicators they put digital indicators in (numbers, no pointer) - that was idiotic, you cant "scan" a number, besides who cares what "percent of tank capacity" you currently have, fer cripes sakes. A LCD indicator is a step better with an actual needle but you have to have a pretty damn bright screen to be able to see it with sunlight on it, to me the only real advantage to LCD indicators is the elimination of Parallax. To me, (even though I am not some pointy head engineer, since I know what "human factors engineering" actually is), would be to go ahead and digitize the system up to the indicators but keep the old analog face indicators instead of flat screen indicator. It wouldn't take much of nothing to make a tiny converter to change the digital signal into a analog signal to power the readings of the indicators. But I would actually put the illumination bulbs inside the gage's (like the TIT indicators) instead of that eyebrow lighting abortion. The advantages of this (to me) would be: You could use the original indicators that are already filling the supply system and almost all of them are rebuildable. The ability to scan the indicators would be greatly enhanced and you could actually see them with illumination off or at one or two clicks above off (can you see the LCD indicators with all the lighting off? I don't know myself). An example is early on in the Afghanistan vacation I flew with no lights on inside at all, with only a lip-light to do checks on my indicators. Scan would be more accurate (to me), sure the digital displays have needles but they just don't scan the same, either its the low resolution of the displays or what I am not sure. All I know is I can scan them more accurately than I can any LCD displays (but that may just be me). A lot of you guys (non FE's) probably don't realize how important the ability to do a quick scan is, when you have everything happening at once you can do a very quick (a second or two) look at all you engine instruments and know that all the needles are roughly in the clock position they are supposed to be. That way you can get back to watching the pilots, terrain and possible inbound ordinance. Do the digital displays also show rapid, smaller fluctuation's or does the system kinda nullify them? So you guys that started with the Analog indicating system for everything and later went to fly LCD indicators (on whatever airframe) which do you like better and which system is easier to accurately read or scan? Sorry, just ruminating with my keyboard, not trying to start a pissing match but I am curious as to what the thoughts of the operators are out there. Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lkuest Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 From a maintenance standpoint, I'd say get rid of the current gauges as they are extremely unreliable. I can't tell you how many maintenance problems they cause on a daily basis. We changed three just today on two different aircraft, one had to be cann'd because we ran out on base. Late takeoff for both aircraft; nothing wrong with the engines. I can totally relate to your reluctance to lose your "scan" capability, but I firmly believe the current gauges are pure crap, and I wouldn't mourn their loss. I just won't believe we can't develop a better indication system than we have and still allow the engineer to asses engine operation at a glance. My 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NATOPS1 Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Boy, SCAN we don’t need no stinking SCAN.... SCAN is a thing of the past!! Ever heard of ACAWS I knew you had... This "New" Panel will eliminate the need to SCAN due to the "Cruise" setting that allows the selection of "other" more important information and if there is an exceedance the system will replace the selected screen and display the malfunctioning system. Next step is the incorporation of a checklist type reaction so if there is a problem it will show you the problem and tell you what to do about it so no more memory items!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEFEGeorge Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Dan, i'm with you. I've never flown with LCD gages but your position makes perfect sense. Some pilots like having the lighting really low and with the analog gages I could still see the relative needle position. Not so sure with the LCD gages. During take-off, quick scans are about all you can hope for, trying to watch everything at once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NATOPS1 Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 I don’t like it but.... I dont count anymore... I guess the responsibility level is being replaced with technology. Look back over aviation evolution and the crew keeps getting smaller and the task load keeps increasing due to the ability to disregard some tasks and let systems do it for us.... Seems we task ourselves with "things" that we never used to do while "WE" were "Flying". I think some "smart" FE will figure out a way to watch movies on it and have the "system" do all the work.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L382fe Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Don't know how about the lighting at night or on NVGs but with the digital engine displays that I have used, there seems to be considerable filter dampening on the analog/digital converter. Small flickers on the fuel flow, TIT and RPM that I was used to seeing on the round gauges are pretty much gone on the digital display. RPM also seems to lag about 3-5 percent from what I am used to seeing during start. Great system when up in cruise and you have time to scan. Never had an indication failure on it yet. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetcal1 Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 OC-ALC just gave a $600K contract for 3 prototypes and design data for a full LCD two inch indicator that also includes a LCD vernier or subdial indicator. It will look just like the old unit but be an LCD D/face. It is also supposed to be interchangable with units on the C-5. There are new 2" round indicators on the market with a combination analog digital display. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMPTestFE Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Dan, I couldn't have agreed with you more....until I started flying and understanding the AMP setup. Once we figured out that we can pretty much trust the system, the need for a constant scan goes away. Instead of trying to read the digits & figure out how much it's fluctuating, wait until the entire gage turns yellow or red, accompanied by a master caution or warning. That's how we're going to be able to spend more productive time keeping our ass from hitting stuff we aren't supposed to, or vice versa. Believe me, I was with you when I saw the LCD gages on the 95 models. AMP takes the whole thing to another level. No more need to rebuild gages, or troubleshoot gage or system problem. This thing is going to make everyone's life much easier & cost us much less in upkeep, with the bonus of being able to communicate & navigate through the modern airspaces that are popping up. All you need is an open mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herkhealer Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 (edited) I currently fly C-130As and EC-130s (all analog "steam" guages) but I am currently on leave doing some flight test for a C-130 that is modified with six MFD's. Two Pilot displays, two nav displays, engine display and system display (yes, the nav position was removed and now it is a nice table to have lunch at). I would have to say after getting used to the way information is displayed and how it is displayed, it is a pretty good system. I have not stopped scanning like I do when I fly my beloved "steam guages". But it is nice when there is a malfunction or if you are exceeding a limit, the guage will alert you. I have found myself getting a bit "quick" to respond when we have a guage go red so I can see that being a learning curve as you will need to actually analyze the situation before you react, you tend to want to correct the red guage post haste. The only thing that i see a flaw in was when we lost all of the engine display and system display panels inflight, now there is a reversionary system and when we selected it, it didn't work either. We found ourselves flying back to base and truly didn't have any engine or system indication (found out it was the test engineers computer harness hooked into the computer). But the seat of your pants works well...lol. Overall, my opinion is it is a good system and it will serve us well. But of course, it is human nature to be resistant to change, we like the comfy chair we sit in... Qualifier, the system I am talking about is not the Boeing AMP mod the USAF has elected to upgrade aircraft with. I am not speaking on behalf of Boeing or the AMP program, but more from an operator's perspective on upgrading the C-130 fleet (what do I care, EC-130s aren't getting AMP anyway, lol...) PS. EPCS kicks butt...truly love it. Edited February 2, 2010 by herkhealer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMPTestFE Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 That sounds like the N-G system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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