Takur Ghar and other random reminiscing

[Dan Wilson]

Figured I would start a new thread for this and not bolox up my post about the MOH.

There is NO CLASSIFIED or Sensitive, or OPSEC related information in this post, lets just get that out there right off the top

Gary (and all, if your interested), take a look at the Wikipedia article on "the battle for Roberts Ridge and Op Anaconda - lots of disinformation there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Anaconda

like this example

Predator drone footage also shows the possibility that Chapman was alive and fighting on the peak after the SEALs left rather than being killed outright as thought by Mako 30. A man was seen fighting in a bunker against multiple enemies until hit by an RPG. If this man was Chapman, he succumbed "a mere 45 seconds before... Razor 01 appeared over the mountaintop"

Chapman was gunned down, hard, not even five minutes after they sat down and engaged, and then several mortar shells landing not ten feet from the body later on! If he got up and fought later, he sure didn't do it this dimension.

Takur Ghar, for the first time really shows that modern warfare had some strange aspects (I pretty familiar with those; both Takur Ghar and STrAnGe).

One morning early somewhere around 0300, I had landed and was hanging around in Intel (weren't you in there too Gary?) watching the Predator feed for this mission. I missed the initial attack that cost us Roberts, but got to see the second seal team inserted, to try and find Roberts and the huge ambush that killed Chapman.

Then a few hours later watching Cunningham's crew go in (at dawn) and get shwacked hard and see all the initial casualty's occur (at this time we were still flying ONLY at night and with less than some% illumination but I guess big green works by different logic).

Some hours after that, flying to Takur Ghar ourselves; Gary (mc130fe) was on the other plane (ifs I's a'members ah'rectly) just doing our thing just off to one side of Takur Ghar, listening to the traffic on the radio from the survivors on the ground waiting recovery and then they added Cunningham to the KIA list!!

It was just so strange, watching all this on TV, then a couple hours later we were there:eek:

There were a LOT of things about this insertion and rescue that were so completely AFU, especially comm. In [partial] explanation this was the first time much of this hi tech goomba was integrated, especially between SOF forces and big green and big blue.

When you bring so many new things on line the learning curve is steep, (translate that as people are going to die until we get it all worked out right). With the outstanding exception of on Army General that should be shot for intentionally causing some of those comm problems because he was miffed.

Lot of other things happened that night:

An A-10 that didn't even know we were there, he's throwing out IR flares and putting rockets into the hill below us; he must have flown right between our planes a dozen times!

It wouldn't have been so bad if he hadn't kept throwing those damned flares out, blinding our butts.

I think that was the same night our two ship had to move at least once, as a AC-130 decided to park right above us and started a fire mission - oops!

That was also the night that the Talon landed off centerline at Gardez Old and got all kinds of stuck in the mud.

Grunts didn't care, they still wanted their FARP by god and proceeded to the get it.

After awhile they got word there was a whole bunch of "locals" in trucks heading that way, the Aircrew were wanting to evac with one of the 47's- BUT leave the Crew Chief there (If I remember right the Crew Chief, god bless his ass, came right up on the radio, and let be known his opinion of being left behind, don't know if he was aware he was aware he was transmitting though)!

At least, before they had to chain the Crew Chief to the airplane, they finally got word the trucks were "friendly" fighters.

Somebody was throwing some kind of Ordnance around that night that was lighting up the entire sky, like mega lightning, but from the ground, and buttloads more light than any 2000lb'er makes by a long sight!

There were several other odd things that happened that night but I cant recall them from out of this swiss cheese brain of mine!!

Dan

Edited December 28, 2009 by Dan Wilson

[Railrunner130]

Wow! Thanks for sharing.

I have just completed reading Roberts Ridge and came to a completely different conclusion for the cause of the SNAFU than was listed in the book. Perhaps there was more going on than was listed? I dunno. Perhaps I am focusing on the wrong issues? Plus I'm not familiar with how Spec Ops works, so that could be a factor as well.

[Skip Davenport]

typical too many forks in the fire -- i.e. everyone wanting part of the action -- communication -- not the equipment but the talkers have always been part of the problem on every operation I was on. Sounds like the Big Guys haven't learned that once the plan has been developed they have been briefed, approved the plan. Then when the shit hits the fan let the OPERATERS figure it out and stay out of there WAY unless there help is asked for then provide the requested assistance and keep your ideas to yourself!!

[Dan Wilson]

Basically the SOC command was split between two operational locations/command structures in country, and frequently the twain never shall meet once your off the ground. So if something changes between the two halves you only find out when:

1) your user don't show,

2) Some nice people, that aren't supposed to be there, really like your plane are trying to get a better look it by illuminating it with tracers and rocket motors or

3) You don't show where your now "supposed" to be.

4) Then you throw the overall command structure over on Temptation Island and just about anything can happen.

But SOC is eminently flexible.

Many missions I was on were completely different that what we took off to fly. If Boots on the ground, or Rotary wing assets on the air needed something, we would do what we were able to do. Several missions we completed, then some new user needed something and we would extend our mission to help. But with the communist fighter puke takeover that was in progress when I retired that may all be changed. They were trying their best to bleach out the black from AFSOC. aka the big blue takeover.

I haven't read "Roberts Ridge" yet, I do hear there are inaccuracies in it. "None Braver" has a fairly accurate account (written around Jason Cunningham), I just picked up "Not a good day to die" but haven't had the chance to read it yet.

I wont comment any more on "who was at fault" or "who screwed up" since all I have is scuttlebutt and supposition. Us peons did our job right but above and beyond that, lets just say the upper command performance could have been better, you feed in all the new tech like the predator, well lets say hindsight is 20/20.

Dan

[Dan Wilson]

Would you tell us the story about Jeff Pohl?

Well one of the guys on the mountain could probably tell it a lot better, I wasn't there since that crew stole my crews mission and airplane and logged one more takeoff than landing with it - Mission hogs!

If I tell Jeff's story I will try to give a (not so) brief overview of what led up to the crash. The crew (stealing my mission ) takes off to support 160th SOAR MH-47's on either an Elvis Hunt (OBL) or a Jimmy Hoffa (Mulla Omar) hunt (don't remember which). They were pretty deep into the mountains, refueling the 47's just before the hit on whichever compound it was.

One bird had a hell of a time trying to get on the hose.

But he had to have the fuel so they kept dragging it out and dragging it out, trying to get him his gas and ended up in new and exiting locations in the Hindu Kush.

If you have never used NVG's to fly with, let me explain a limitation that has snuffed many a monkey over the years.

If you have two sand dunes or snow covered peaks, one right behind the other and same color, with the back one being taller - you will NOT see the one right in front of you (remember, no depth perception)!

Talons of both flavors use Terrain Following radar to help negate this issue but on the Shadow you only have the MK 1 eyeball and topo map.

Well they are droning for a pass that will take them closer to the "hit" and didn't know there was ground coming up to meet them until "poof" the airplane turns off:eek:

The 47 was still trying to plug into the hose when they impacted so I guess he did a REALLY quick climb and spin around to land to start effecting a rescue.

Well the Pilots knew they were going in a few seconds before impact and the pilot, John Cline, tried his best to clear, but missed it by "just that much"!

He did a hell of a job - between his piloting skills (he has always been a great pilot) and luck, nobody died!!

Several things influenced the survival of the crew, piloting, they were at power ON stall speed (or really really close to it), ten foot deep snow cover and about the only fairly flat (not level) place the could be put down on, basically the sweet spot all the way around.

With the snow there was no fire amazing enough, even though there's fuel everywhere, and lox blowing off from broken lines.

Now onto Jeff's part in the play

He was the loadmaster at the Rt. Paratroop door, on impact he was thrown to the Left side of the airplane, and worse yet, he ended up between the fuselage and the Benson tank (a installed, removable tank in the cargo compartment that holds up to 11,000 lbs of fuel). After he gets into this position the Benson tank, with many thousands of pounds, of fuel smashes over onto Jeff, actually forcing his lower extremity's THROUGH the airframe!!!

Quote:

3.5.1. ALL MEMBERS OF THE MC SURVIVED THE CRASH WITH ONLY TWO CREW MEMBERS SERIOUSLY INJURED. THE MISHAP RIGHT LOADMASTER (MRLM) WAS TRAPPED IN THE AIRCRAFT FOR APPROXIMATELY AN HOUR AND A HALF. HE WAS THROWN FROM HIS SCANNER SEAT NEAR THE RIGHT PARATROOP DOOR AND BECAME WEDGED ON THE LEFT SIDE OF THE AIRCRAFT BETWEEN THE FUSELAGE AND THE INTERNAL FUEL TANK. THE MRLM INJURiES INCLUDED A BROKEN PELVIS, AN OPEN COMPOUND FRACTURE OF THE RIGHT LEG AND ANKLE, SEVERE HEAD CONCUSSION, CHEST TRAUMA AND ABDOMINAL TRAUMA. IT TOOK AN ADDITIONAL 30 TO 40 MINUTES TO CARRY HIM VIA STRETCHER TO THE AWAITING MH-47E. THE MRN WAS NOT STRAPPED IN AT IMPACT AND WAS THROWN FORWARD AND DISLOCATED HIS SHOULDER AGAINST THE FE SEAT PEDESTAL. THE MRN WAS NOT ABLE TO EGRESS THROUGH the FORWARD ESCAPE HATCH AND WAS LED THROUGH A TEAR IN THE AIRCRAFT SKIN BY THE MCP TO THE RESCUE HELICOPTERS. ALL OTHER CREWMEMBERS HAD MINOR CONTUSIONS AND LACERATIONS FROM THE MISHAP. THE FINAL HELICOPTER WITH SURVIVORS TOOK OFF FROM THE CRASH SITE AT 0035Z AND LANDED AT A FORWARD OPERATION LOCATION (FOL) AT 0200Z.

3.5.2. THE AIRCRAFT WAS ORDERED DESTROYED BY THE JSOAC-S COMMANDER. TACTICAL AIRCRAFT DROPPED 4 X 2000 POUND JOINT DIRECT ATTACK MUNITIONS (JDAM) BOMBS ON THE CRASH SITE, TOTALLY DESTROYING THE AIRCRAFT WRECKAGE

Now ensues what must have been a unique experience for the crew, realizing they crashed and they aint dead (except for the FE, he don't remember nothing until he's in the back of the 47).

Once they all count two arms, two legs, and two heads, they can start checking status of the other crew members.

I think it took them a bit to realize that Jeff was pinned and really badly AFU, the snow that saved them is also making it hell to move around.

In comes the 47's, they land just uphill of the plane and struggle down to the wreck and start to try and extract Jeff.

Between some ODA/OGA kinda guys, the other loadmaster, and Jason Cunningham, they finally got him out with a combination of hacking away at the plane with their knives and other toys.

Jeff meanwhile is in just a bit of pain and bleeding, laying in a deep drift of snow that blew in when the airframe split up. So hes in pain and freezing (pretty sure even though the snow was threatening to kill him from hypothermia it also kept him from bleeding to death over the couple of hours it took to get him out).

Trying to extract him they used everything they had, even dumped hydraulic fluid on his legs trying to get it slippery enough to squeeze back through the holes he made. Then once they finally get him out the poor dude has to get banged around for the next thirty or forty minutes it took to get him uphill to the helicopter. They could only move a step or two before they ended up losing the grip on the stretcher or had to set it down because of the depth of the snow, with Jeff screaming with every move.

Once they got him onboard the the 47 took off again, Jason Cunningham kept Jeff alive until they got to Bagram, and from there they medivac'd Jeff and Don to Germany, once Jeff was stable enough to move again.

Nobody expected Jeff to live, I think it was still really touch and go even when he got to Walter Reed but he survived. Not sure how hes doing, I haven't seen him or talked to him since 2004.

On the crash and the subsequent accident report,I disagree with many of the findings as either incorrect, not appropriate findings for wartime operations and "someone" with an ax to grind.

Safety is good and all but in WAR sometimes it has to take a backseat to the MISSION, thats war.

Check out 34 16 26.72N 064 30 31.73 S

Two weeks later Jason Cunningham was dead.

Dan

[mc130fe]

Dan

You have it pretty close to correct. The only change I'll throw in; just prior to the crash, the MH-47 cut the hose trying to get on the hose, so the crew was working that problem when the pilots noticed the ground coming up at them.

As you stated, our crew had been out flying for almost 8 hours when retasked to accompany Dika 03 on their mission. We flew on their wing for almost three hours up and down the AR track, but had to RTB for fuel. Another crew replaced us and completed the mission with them.

Funny how different crews see different things, #2 saw what was going on. Remember, they were 1/2 mile in trail with their own MH-47s on the hose, but were able to see the impending problem, and due to time/mission requirements didn't have the time to radio them to climb.

The way everything was going down out in the AOR during this time, it was nothing to push the mission/flying envelope farther than had been in 40 years. Not like I haven’t seen 295 kts, 300 ft AGL, or 85 degrees bank.

Everything after that was as stated by Dan.

[Rusty Gun]

Jeff was my bud. I was supposed to be on Ditka 03 30 mikes before they took off. I was in the room when the call came in. There was more bullshit that was never talked about that cost that crew & Jeff precious time. It was BFU. I will never, ever forget "we will self-CSAR"

[Rusty Gun]

Talked to Jeff in '11. He married, he's happy, he was last working w/I believe he said at Randolph. He wanted to know what I remembered.

I didn't want to remember.