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Hypothetical Question


NCHerkDriver
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Wellllll, it's been 43 years since I crew chiefed a Herk, but safety is safety. I would have suggested caging that engine and heading for home. However, as a former cc I have a serious problem with the guy who signed off on that situation! He (or she) and I would have an up close and personal conversation ASAP.
I'm with Tinwhistle on this.Right down to the forty+ years since CC a Herk. Don't know how anyone could pencilwhip this.
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Flying out of LRF with 16th. IP, 2 student pilots, me with a student IFE and student FE, and scanner (no load). Fuel 7, 6, and 5 (36k). Evening takeoff. On climb out I scanned the panel from behind FE seat. RH aux tank gage was down almost 1k from LH. Asked scanner to scan 3 & 4. He asked me to come back. #3 was covered with fluid. Hard to see anything but it was wet and flowing. Called IP and suggested we shut it down and head back. We did. After 30 minute flight back, landed and taxied in. maintenance jumped on board, asked what the problem is and I handed them the forms, as the crew was leaving the flightdeck for the ramp. Outside I explained it to CC, ACC, expediter, and finally a fuel system guy. After an hour CC finally called me (the FEs) over. Big CND. I went up to the flight deck. They had given the writeup a red diag. I took the forms, made it a red X entry and resigned it. Now that brought a lot of bit**ing, and "you can't do that", and an E-9. I caught some flack from him and the IP looked at me (Maj. Kitchens). Told them that it was pretty easy to get a CND with the condition lever still in feather. "Well we put it back there after testing." I told the Maj that I thought the bird was unsafe, the other FEs agreed, and he refused the plane as is. Eventually they cancelled us around 10pm. Next morning I get a call and report to the sqd at 10 to see the commander. Major and I were there, got our butts chewed because maintenance said the plane was good and we refused it. I explained the situation to the LC (can't remember what his name was he but he was an A-H commander), and told him I'd do the same thing again. He pretty much didn't like the actual facts, but Maj Kitchens, said the same thing adding that it's the FE's job to relay accurate and honest interpretation of the plane's and the system's status and problems. Pretty much on the sqd CC's and the want-to-be-1st Sgt M.Clark (FE that filled in as 1st shirt) shi*list after that.

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Just to keep the chat on the even keel that we all want -

Pilots and engineer get intimidated into flying an acft that they don't want to fly.

Mechanics get intimidated into perfoming maintenance actions that they know aren't right.

It takes a real backbone to stand your ground, and sometimes we can't find someone with a backbone - and if we do, he or she stands to lose in the end.

Safe is safe, whether you are in Sandland or in the CONUS. If an unsafe act become safe just because you might have to sleep in the Herky Hilton, then you may want to question yourself about how "unsafe" it really was to start with.

Edited by Steve1300
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Don't know the whole story, but they didn't ESP it prior to their landing.

The prop was topped off, a static feather check performed and then subsequently signed off. AC still refused to take it and ended up driving the crew home in a rental van. Plane was subsequently flown back to home station (by a different crew) and hasn't flown since. Still waiting to see if MX decides to do a prop change on it.

It used to say in 55-130 and later in 112C130 vol something and I paraphrase... If a crew writes up a problem - A different crew will NOT be launched to fly the aircraft. The write-up will be fixed. I remember the paraphrase though not the actual verbiage, mainly because the Navy did not have the same stipulation. When i was flying out of Cubi - I remeber writing up an airplane at home station and one of the pilots saying that he had no problem fluying with the problem. I spent the better part of a day trying to find some guidance or support that a crewmember should not do such a thing but alas....

The point is - Don't ever (there are a very few exceptions) take an aircraft that another crew has written up.

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It used to say in 55-130 and later in 112C130 vol something and I paraphrase... If a crew writes up a problem - A different crew will NOT be launched to fly the aircraft. The write-up will be fixed. I remember the paraphrase though not the actual verbiage, mainly because the Navy did not have the same stipulation. When i was flying out of Cubi - I remeber writing up an airplane at home station and one of the pilots saying that he had no problem fluying with the problem. I spent the better part of a day trying to find some guidance or support that a crewmember should not do such a thing but alas....

The point is - Don't ever (there are a very few exceptions) take an aircraft that another crew has written up

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Nearly every time you fly with a prop low oil light is an indication malfunction. If you see a prop losing oil that is a defect. When a prop is losing oil, you are going to lose that prop sooner or later.

ehhh.i disagree.

regardless. Ive been in this situation. Had a leaky rear lip, well really leaky rear lip. Crew needed to go (maybe 2 hour flight?) So we topped her off, they launched, caged after at altitude, and called it in when they landed.

as long as they monitor for fluxes, its not a huge problem

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ehhh.i disagree.

regardless. Ive been in this situation. Had a leaky rear lip, well really leaky rear lip. Crew needed to go (maybe 2 hour flight?) So we topped her off, they launched, caged after at altitude, and called it in when they landed.

as long as they monitor for fluxes, its not a huge problem

Wow, there is so much wrong with that statement I dont know where to start:eek:

Dan

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If you gotta go you better have a VERY good reason!!

Will you get killed if you don’t go?

Will someone else get killed if you don’t go?

Pretty simple questions....

If people are not shooting at you or someone WILL DIE if you do not "go" then pretty sure it SHOLD be a HARD sell to get people to RISK their lives, aircraft and anyone who may be in the path on the ground.

We are lucky the Herc is forgiving and very well designed; for many a fool has survived to tell their story!

A single issue could have changed your mission accomplished into a mishap.

My/your/ our NUMBER one job is to return ALIVE with the aircraft in as good a condition as possible...

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Not an indication of a malf? Even if it's the float swx that's a malf and you don't know it is just the swx. In this case the cases described in this thread are actual leaks that means they definitely had a malf. What if that crew had taken off and the leak decided to become massive before they got to "altitude" and that prop wouldn't feather? Nothing like a little drag from an unfeathered prop. As an operator, if you took off with it, you are suffering from an ID 10T error. Yes, if someone was shooting at you and the choice was flying with an unfeatherable prop or being dismantled on the ground by a missle or mortar, well that one's self explanatory.

From the start of this thread it seems to me that the second crew who flew it home had even a hiccup they'd have been taken out.

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having been an engine/prop mech for a long time, now an FE...this is entertaining

Lot of opinions...and mine, comes down to "does the benefit outweigh the risk?"

or........

Pilot/FE go toe to toe with the Crew Chief/Engine troop, bare knuckle it for a few rounds.............that'd solve all the problems :)

I think one of the big variables to consider is experience...on both sides...New engine guy, or has he been around a while? (caveat it all with good reputation bad reputation)

FE/AC...do they find mysterious discrepancies... on Friday afternoon lines only?

....Worst prop leak you ever saw isn't the same as the next guy....and that prop leak could very well be within limits by opinion of one engine guy and not another....

to each their own

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Key line for determination on this one was "rear lip seal", that means pressurized sump!

What is the leak limit for the pressurized sump?

Dan

Been a while but I did find something on it once...digging through propshop TO's. Can't quote it, and unfortunantly no access to a prop shop to go hunting. It'd be nice to have in the bottom of the pubs bag now, should an a$$ of an engine troop (not knocking and certainly not a blanket statement) say it's within limits and point to the Job Guide (well, laptop now) at the thrust nut leak limits

Good judgement, experience, and adherence to the black and white of the T.O.'s/Pubs=safety/success

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Unless the hydraulic fluid is really old, it would be easy to tell a thrust nut leak from a prop leak. I have seen hydraulic fluid that looked like engine oil.

Remember that a warmed up prop should not leak except the maintenance manual limits of one drop every 45 seconds. That would not consitute a "visible fluid leak" in flight. That can give you evidence of a leak after landing.

The start of this was "visible fluid leak."

I'd bet that having a bad prop that will not feather in flight would cause folks to be kind of touchy about bad props.

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I'd bet that having a bad prop that will not feather in flight would cause folks to be kind of touchy about bad props.

So true. Never had a real prop issue in flight. Did have one hang up once on an assault landing at a LZ during Brim Frost 85. Luckily had Col. Baxter Snider, the DO of 616 MAG, flying left seat. He caught by feel before I even saw it. He had the throttles back to ground idle and on the brakes before anyone could say s***.

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My guess would be that you have a torn lip seal which means your fix includes removing the prop. Legally, you're okay to keep the engine running if you get a low oil light IF its not accompanied by RPM flux. If you are in a pinch, you could overservice slightly and fly the aircraft with the knowledge that you do have 3 more engines.

If you sent me a TAR I'd tell you no unless bad guys are coming over the hill. I have told at least one crew to take off without a spinner (they were in a place where they were not wanted) but there is specific tech data that cautions against operating the aircraft with a known propeller discrepancy.

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First post here. Just found out about the website. Nice.

Hypothetical situation. Offstation on a JA/ATT (but within driving distance of home). You get a prop low oil light. Land. Upon inspection, you have the worst prop leak you have ever seen; definitely could be described as an "excessive visible fluid leak". MX tops it off, signs it off, and says that they'd rather you fly it back home and do a prop change there.

Do you fly it home? The flight is only 45 minutes...

Do you fly it home? You're the AC you decide. While I think that it's good to trust your guys, not all of your maintenance guys have integrity. I know, I work with them every day.

Another thought: you say it was an excessive visible fluid leak and you say that the mx guys topped it off. How much did they put in? 2 quarts? 3 quarts? When was the last time it was serviced. Sometimes those leaks LOOK lots worse than they are. Sometimes overservicing or accomplishing the 15 days the day before and spilling fluid down inside will cause a mess on the next flight. Lots of variables here.

Edited by C130CC
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Do you fly it home? You're the AC you decide
Not quite right there on a couple of points.

The AC may have a lot of authority but he cannot decide for me to end my life.

AND

As an FE, if the pilot wants to take the plane, and I know its a no-go but I hop on the aircraft anyways my butt is going to be just as disqualified as the pilots and worse.

One thing that mx folks really cant fathom is that I don't care if the pilot wants to go, if I dont want to go, feel that safety is unduly compromised, then me and my bags are walking. I have had the "your not the pilot, you cant say you wont take the plane with [whatever] problem" speech with MX many times over my career.

The pilot can run around in circles makings wings with his arms and going twwwwppppp for all I care!! I will be standing in the DO's office and the Commanders office in the near future but if I have a good reason they WILL back me up. In 5000 hours and twenty some years I only had to walk once but I did it and the loads followed right behind me.

Dan

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Not quite right there on a couple of points.

The AC may have a lot of authority but he cannot decide for me to end my life.

AND

As an FE, if the pilot wants to take the plane, and I know its a no-go but I hop on the aircraft anyways my butt is going to be just as disqualified as the pilots and worse.

One thing that mx folks really cant fathom is that I don't care if the pilot wants to go, if I dont want to go, feel that safety is unduly compromised, then me and my bags are walking. I have had the "your not the pilot, you cant say you wont take the plane with [whatever] problem" speech with MX many times over my career.

The pilot can run around in circles makings wings with his arms and going twwwwppppp for all I care!! I will be standing in the DO's office and the Commanders office in the near future but if I have a good reason they WILL back me up. In 5000 hours and twenty some years I only had to walk once but I did it and the loads followed right behind me.

Dan

I understand any crew member can refuse to fly for any reason, whether it's justified or not, you can't MAKE anyone do ANYTHING.

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