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Hypothetical Question


NCHerkDriver
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First post here. Just found out about the website. Nice.

Hypothetical situation. Offstation on a JA/ATT (but within driving distance of home). You get a prop low oil light. Land. Upon inspection, you have the worst prop leak you have ever seen; definitely could be described as an "excessive visible fluid leak". MX tops it off, signs it off, and says that they'd rather you fly it back home and do a prop change there.

Do you fly it home? The flight is only 45 minutes...

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First post here. Just found out about the website. Nice.

Hypothetical situation. Offstation on a JA/ATT (but within driving distance of home). You get a prop low oil light. Land. Upon inspection, you have the worst prop leak you have ever seen; definitely could be described as an "excessive visible fluid leak". MX tops it off, signs it off, and says that they'd rather you fly it back home and do a prop change there.

Do you fly it home? The flight is only 45 minutes...

First why did you land off station? If I start it up and don't have a lite I would taxi out do run up & still no lite go. Just me though.

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I could probably get in trouble for saying this, but you've got three other engines. That being said, I've been told by an engineer that when something goes wrong with the airplane, it's not just one thing that goes wrong, lots of things decide to break just then. It all comes down to what your stripes or collars are comfortable with.

Just be careful though. Leaky props can possibly cause smoke and fumes in the flight deck, so if you decide to take it, close the bleed valve to that engine.

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I'm just a crew chief, nut if I were the one who signed it off, I'd say go, And of course I'd be on the plane as well. It'd be a lot easier to fix the prop and whatever else chose to go wrong at home station instead of trying to truck troops and parts all day.

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What ifs gotta love them.......What should I do.... If you think it needs to be fixed then you need to make it known.

Ask them (Maintenance) to service the prop and then get ON the Aircraft for the short 45 min flight home........ Explain all the possible malfunctions you are going to be at risk for IE severe prop overspeed, engine failure without the ability to feather the prop, and the best BLOWN prop seal that dumps ALL the fluid into the intake and sucked INTO the Bleed air system sent to the air conditioners and then distributed into THEIR LUNGS and EYES and remind them that while they cant SEE or BREATH neither can you or the other CREWMEMBERS that are "FLYING" them home......

If their answer is NO then you have your answer, NO!!!

ACTUALLY your answer should be NO!!! Without the explanation then EXPLAIN.....

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Oh, my gosh! The dreaded "three engine landing!" I don't know... sounds pretty risky.....

Can you get airborne? If you do, can you land on three?

Maintenance signs it off? How? Replaced lost fluid? Does anyone think that the maintenance guy would be afraid to fly with you? Somehow,I don't.

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Do you fly it home? The flight is only 45 minutes...
You landed for a prop low oil light, did you shut down the engine inflight and IFE for the low oil light?

Thats section 3 Emergency Procedure and obviously there is a big problem with the prop since you say its the worst leak you ever seen.

So the answer to this question is a resounding NO!!

There are so many things that can bite your ass really really bad when you lose all your prop oil, or enough to lose control of the prop.

Think severe overspeed at the least, depending where the leak is, it could be much much worse.

If its coming from a blade, think cracked blade shank that could lead to a blade separation - its happened before.

Stick with the requirements of T.O. 3-1-6 and you will be safe. If you choose to go outside those parameters I would say you really need a good reason and training is not a good reason.

Why put your butt out over the edge for "training"? If you doing an actual mission (i.e. combat) that is a different story, there you have to balance "the mission" importance with how far you can push yourself and the airplane without dying (if possible)!

Many folks will disagree but in war you do what you can to complete the mission - safety takes a back seat to mission. But if you do something silly in training and kill yourself and your crew or bend the jet then your a schmuck and the subject of many negative discussions by your squadron mates.

I have flown with all kinds of things wrong with the airplane, but I would only fly with a problem if I fully understood the entire system involved, what was wrong and what was the worst case scenario. In stuff like this, knowledge and understanding your systems is life.

Training is just training, its not worth dying for.

Dan

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Short answer.... NOPE! Out of limits is out of limits. What you might do in an actual contingency situation and what you do for a JA/AAT are two completely different things. Weve all been told throughout our flying careers that "safety is paramount", there are sometimes where that isn't really true but am I willing to risk my a$$ for a training mission....? again, NOPE!

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Couple instances I had.

While flying with the 16th TATS at LRF 1980ish, no FE student, the IP was a Major - "I can fly anything" ego, on his way to the 89th at Andrews in a month, 2 student pilots and a LM zzzzing in the back. We had a prop low oil light that came on. No visible leak. We were flying a pilot pro, at Barksdale I think it was. With 2 student pilots I wanted to impress upon them procedures, etc. I suggested that we follow procedures and head for home with it caged. The IP made a big deal that it was an indication problem. I figured it was probably an indication problem, but I couldn't see the outboard side of the nacelle. Not to do it on intercom, I took off my headset and taped his shoulder and he turned around. I reminded him we had 2 student, inexperienced pilots and if it really was a leak, what the consequences could be, and if he didn't called for the ESP and get clearance home, as soon as we landed I was off to the Safety Office. He saw it my way and we headed home.

The other time was flying in the 17th on a JA/AAT exercise sortie to Donnally LZ (I think it was) 1984ish, near Fairbanks, to pick up some grunts and truck. Parked in small ramp area. Go a call from LM while we were doing an engine running on-load - #3 was leaking fluid at a pretty good rate. Hyd res was down and continuing. Quick decision with AC (who was an IP) and me. Asked 2nd LM how long. He said few minutes. CC on board - grab some hyd fluid and keep res full. Got buttoned up, taxi out, immediate TO, gear flaps, cage #3. If we had stayed it would have blocked the parking ramp, and the AF people and grunts were all trying to close down and get out. Another bird was on it's way in to pick up a load. A regular base we would have stayed, but a LZ with no support at all.....

Different systems and scenarios, but got the bird home for maintenance to look at.

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I think if you look at the experienced engineers they will tell you the same thing - no. This has nothing to do with the branch of service or commercial you fly for. it has to do with not being bullet proof. When I was a young F.E. I would do stuff and think I got away with things. There are too many graves filled and too many careers lost to making .....youthful decisions. Unless you have a better reason for ignoring the book (you had a good chance of dying anyway) let MX have it right where it is.

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Dan, is that the TO about flying with known prop malfunctions? If you can argue that the big leak is a malfunction (which I can), then according to this TO, maintenance cannot release the aircraft for, nor will you fly the aircraft. It ties your hands pretty squarely. After all, this is not a combat, or other high priority situation.

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If I'm 45 minutes from home and get a prop low oil lite I'm caging the eng and heading home. CP & FE, prepare for three eng. landing at home base. If, however, I divert, am not taking an acft. that has an visable leak that mx signed off as serviced. Further, as the maintenance honcho I would not permit such corrective action.

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Wellllll, it's been 43 years since I crew chiefed a Herk, but safety is safety. I would have suggested caging that engine and heading for home. However, as a former cc I have a serious problem with the guy who signed off on that situation! He (or she) and I would have an up close and personal conversation ASAP.

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Dan, is that the TO about flying with known prop malfunctions? If you can argue that the big leak is a malfunction (which I can), then according to this TO, maintenance cannot release the aircraft for, nor will you fly the aircraft. It ties your hands pretty squarely. After all, this is not a combat, or other high priority situation.

Yep, that's the one, all three or four pages of it.

It pretty much cuts right to the point on many prop malfunctions.

When I was a (much) younger FE I would frequently have to show it to the pilot to back up a no-go call, it beat the hell out of a bunch of chest thumping on the part of the cake eaters in the front seats trying to override my calls.

Dan

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Thanks to all for your thoughts and inputs. If you haven't figured it out....not so hypothetical. Also, not my crew or aircraft...

Don't know the whole story, but they didn't ESP it prior to their landing.

The prop was topped off, a static feather check performed and then subsequently signed off. AC still refused to take it and ended up driving the crew home in a rental van. Plane was subsequently flown back to home station (by a different crew) and hasn't flown since. Still waiting to see if MX decides to do a prop change on it.

I can definitely appreciate the difference in considerations when dealing with training and combat. I'm sure that I would have made the same decision had I signed for the jet, considering that it was only training sortie and considering the proximity to our home station. Iraq or Afghanistan sleeping in the Herky Hilton at a dirt LZ faced with the same situation...possibly a different decision.

The T.O. you mentioned also came up during our discussions around the unit. How can I get a copy of this? My understanding is that it has never been rescinded...Any help on this would be appreciated.

Thanks again.

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Steve you would be amazed at some of the things Maint has asked me to "do" over the years....

Fly with a know Blown MLG strut...

Fly with a condition lever that does not work...

Fly with a splitline leak...

Fly with the elevator trim tab so loose you could move it 2 inches...

(we'll just "tape" it in place, YEA (they) said "tape" it in place)

Seams to me Maint was NEVER with me just want me to do these things....

Dan is right over "there" you do what you have to do BUT you do it informed. We each have a little voice and it is 99.9% right we listen to it about 85% of the time and use our training and aircraft knowledge the other 15% to get the mission done. That 15% can KILL you if you do not ensure everyone understands the risk and the measures you have put in place to minimize them....

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