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CDS targets


Muff Millen
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I got the below off the AFMagazine daily report: But if I remember correctly we dropped from 10000 ft and hit a soccor field that was only 100 yards long and most bundles hit the field. The new system will hit within 135 yards of target!!!! And they call this progress? Go figure.

Muff

Going 3-D: The aircrew of a C-17 transport assigned to the 3rd Wing at Elmendorf AFB, Alaska, on March 19 completed the first improved container delivery system, or ICDS, airdrop using new three-dimensional weather technology that improves delivery accuracy. "We've done ICDS drops in the last year but not as accurate as [this] drop," said Maj. William Friar, instructor aircraft commander with Elmendorf's 353rd Combat Training Squadron. The airdrop occurred over the remote location of Tin City, Alaska. Such a scenario is useful for training to resupply combat troops in hard-to-access locations in Afghanistan, said wing officials. The C-17 crew was to deliver their load of containers within 135 yards of the target after being dropped from an altitude of 5,100 feet. Earlier this month, the Air Force went operational with a new low-altitude airdrop method for C-130 transports. (Elmendorf report by A1C Christopher Gross)

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If you hit a soccer field from 10,000 ft, I'll tell you it was luck. There are way too many variables from dropping that high to have any accuracy at all. When we were dropping at 15,000-20,000' in Bosnia, we were lucky to get within 1/2 mile of DZ. And that's with an AWADS bird. Inconsistant winds and bad airdrop algorithms were only part of the problem.

They are using JPADS (Joint Precision Airdrop System) today with really good results, but one of the big issues is cost. The steering mechanism is fairly expensive and there is no guarentee you'll ever get it back for additional drops. That's why they are looking at lower cost ways to drop from higher altitudes.

Jim

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If you hit a soccer field from 10,000 ft, I'll tell you it was luck. There are way too many variables from dropping that high to have any accuracy at all. When we were dropping at 15,000-20,000' in Bosnia, we were lucky to get within 1/2 mile of DZ. And that's with an AWADS bird. Inconsistant winds and bad airdrop algorithms were only part of the problem.

They are using JPADS (Joint Precision Airdrop System) today with really good results, but one of the big issues is cost. The steering mechanism is fairly expensive and there is no guarentee you'll ever get it back for additional drops. That's why they are looking at lower cost ways to drop from higher altitudes.

Jim

Jim, I don't believe you doubted what I wrote in my first post! NO it was NOT luck but the skill and cunning of a big team of great pilots, navs, loadmasters and a whole bunch of dedicated warriors!....read this link: http://www.anloc.org/index.php

Then come on back and we will discuss our methods and procedures...and yes it was a soccer field and from both 600 ft and then from 10000 ft most of the CDS bundles did in fact hit the field.

Muff Millen, CMSgt, USAF (Ret)

C-130E IFE

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Sorry Glen...the FE has no access to the ramp and door switches.....

BTW...this Jimmy Smith's remarks really piss me off....but being that he did a 3 year stint at HQ MAC...brainwash headquarters I can understand his thoughts....I did my 3 years there and could not believe the ridiculous bull crap that floated around as FACT, it reafirms why most crewed airplanes have enlisted on the crews. {:-)) I'm glad that I did not loose my common sense while there.

Muff

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Muff,

It was certainly not my intent to "dis" anyone in my last post. As a matter of fact, I am truly amazed at the innovation and dedication of the crews in Viet Nam. They just used different acronyms for their innovations (i.e. LAPES, GRADS, AWADS, etc).

Operations at hell holes like An Loc & Khe Sahn proved the dedication of the crews. The culture of the Herc community always has been (and still is) "do what you gotta do to get the job done." If you are getting shot at too much when flying low and close to the action then try to get out of harms way, but if that doesn't get the job done then you have to go back to where you can get the job done.

Unfortunately, results from high altitude drops are very inconsitent. And it has nothing to do with the crew. The crew can fly to the exact release spot at the perfect speed/heading and the load can be rigged perfectly, but when the load exits the aircraft it is completely ballistic (except with JPADS) and subject to the whims of the wind gods. If you did a good job at guessing what the winds would be on the way down, you might get a good drop. Some crews were better than others, but I still think it's tough to be consistently accurate.

Jim

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Open the ramp and door....only a small part of the mission....you guys in back, the left seater, nav and the rig crews were the ones responsible for the success of the mission.

I guess in the 80s well after Vietnam there was a loss of brain power and experiance as the high (10000 ft) drops low open CDS chutes did such a great job of hitting the spot 5hat it was done away with.

Also what was the advantage of 15000-20000 ft drops?

Did I miss something?

Muff

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Open the ramp and door....only a small part of the mission....you guys in back, the left seater, nav and the rig crews were the ones responsible for the success of the mission.

I guess in the 80s well after Vietnam there was a loss of brain power and experiance as the high (10000 ft) drops low open CDS chutes did such a great job of hitting the spot was it was done away with?

Also what was the advantage of 15000-20000 ft drops?

Did I miss something?

Muff

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I have to agree with JSmith. Unless you were using a different CDS chute that had somebody steering it, hitting the DZ with those results from 10K is highly unlikely and would be pure luck. Sounds like you may have too many zeros in the altitude. 10000 feet or 1000 feet?

How is it that folks think the eng had no access to the ramp and door switches? We fly 62 models and the eng has always opened the ramp and door for airdrop. Were the ramp and door controls in the cockpit added in the 80s?

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I was always in the back, busy, when air dropping, but my feeble brain sure seems to remember that the check list called for the co-pilot opening the ramp and door; no reason that FE couldn't open, as switch was within his reach, as well. All my CDS drops were at 800 feet, if I remember right. I believe that most were on target at Khe Sanh even though most all were performed in fog or mist for most of the run in...

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Well I first moved to trash haulers from EC's in 89 and the FE operated the ramp and door on almost all drops, and it was still that way when I retired in 04.

Hell you should have seen the screaming and yelling from the cake eaters when our checklist changed for the FE to operate the flaps on the Infil/Exfil checklist:eek:

Dan

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"I have to agree with JSmith. Unless you were using a different CDS chute that had somebody steering it, hitting the DZ with those results from 10K is highly unlikely and would be pure luck. Sounds like you may have too many zeros in the altitude. 10000 feet or 1000 feet?

How is it that folks think the eng had no access to the ramp and door switches? We fly 62 models and the eng has always opened the ramp and door for airdrop. Were the ramp and door controls in the cockpit added in the 80s?"

ABOVE POSTED BY 154LOAD

Yes we did have special rigged chutes for the chutes, something about a ring around the shroud lines and maybe an explosive to blow tth ring at low level? There are several Loads on this board who can explain better.....I don't know where you guys get this notion of LUCK...the only thing lucky was that most of us did not get killed...by the grace of God.

None of our missions sorties depended on LUCK. And yes we made dozens of drops onto that soccor field.

Muff

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As I recall at An Loc during the Easter Bunny drops we dropped at 10K due to the small arms ground threat. We flew a ground controlled (GCA) to the CARP. On the first run we tossed out a wind streamer. The second run was a 2 bundal drop based on the wind streamer. The third run was a full drop. As I recall over 80% of the loads landed inside the firebase.

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"I have to agree with JSmith. Unless you were using a different CDS chute that had somebody steering it, hitting the DZ with those results from 10K is highly unlikely and would be pure luck. Sounds like you may have too many zeros in the altitude. 10000 feet or 1000 feet?

How is it that folks think the eng had no access to the ramp and door switches? We fly 62 models and the eng has always opened the ramp and door for airdrop. Were the ramp and door controls in the cockpit added in the 80s?"

ABOVE POSTED BY 154LOAD

Yes we did have special rigged chutes for the chutes, something about a ring around the shroud lines and maybe an explosive to blow tth ring at low level? There are several Loads on this board who can explain better.....I don't know where you guys get this notion of LUCK...the only thing lucky was that most of us did not get killed...by the grace of God.

None of our missions sorties depended on LUCK. And yes we made dozens of drops onto that soccor field.

Muff

Sorry if I sound offensive by using the word luck. Since you can not control winds there is plenty of luck involved. 10K is a long way for a CDS bundle to fall if it is not being controlled in some way.

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Here's one to snicker about -

Brand new LM and at my first assignment KDYS. Was lined up for a Day-Tac with the typical training airdrop load (1 HE and 1 CDS). While we were signing in the conversation at the duty desk was about a Night-Tac the previous evening that put an HE somewhere on the installation but nowhere near to the DZ. That's the morning I first heard the phrase "bad bomb board" - my secondary filled me in on the way out to the aircraft about the whole un-fun process.

Off we go, HE goes out first then after the next low level we work our way through the checklist with the advisories. "See and Hear" "Green light!", gate cuts, good roll and it's load clear. I started aft to clear R & D for closing when I glance back aft - there was this "weird" looking blob cargo `chute doing its own thing- drift'n where ever the wind took it. Got my harness clipped in and made it aft just in time to see the bundle hit - any other time I'd laugh..... We got closed up and took the aircraft back to parking where the riot squad was waiting for us - for a serious moment I considered not opening up to put the chocks out - That lil' problem wound up being one of four connecting points (not a rigger - help me out here) had not been attached and the other three just snapped. I spent more than a few days over at AD watching the rigging process and getting the nomenclature down.

Another time while off station (we heard about this when we got back), the fire department guys were enjoying some TV time in the trailer that sat some distance from the assault strip to be ready when the assault trainer started bending aluminum. The schedule had one formation HE drop before the trainer began - here's the fun part `cause nobody got hurt - one of the HE's hit the trailer and cut it wide open - FCB write in, call for the fire department when ready for assault training......bettcha' those guys had to "dig" their way out of their britches!

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How about a bad bomb board for a PI?

Crew from the 37th doing a CDS drop at bunker DZ,(don't remember if it was an AWADS drop or a visual), and scores a zero yard PI.

Only problem was CCT parked their little Mercedes 4WD buddy right smack on the PI as nobody ever hits a direct PI.:D

Dan

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How about a bad bomb board for a PI?

Crew from the 37th doing a CDS drop at bunker DZ,(don't remember if it was an AWADS drop or a visual), and scores a zero yard PI.

Only problem was CCT parked their little Mercedes 4WD buddy right smack on the PI as nobody ever hits a direct PI.:D

Dan

I remember the same thing happening at the DZ we flew to out of Langley back in 71/72 and I think it was a 37th bird then too :)

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We used to use Blackstone AAF on Camp Pickett VA back then most of the time.

My favorite 37th drop story was the time we flunked the ORI at Pope in 71.

All 9 heavy equipment loads landed and short of the DZ, and Bob Craft and Chuck Slagle were the winners, 5 miles short of the DZ on the front steps of some families trailer. But they dropped on time.

Bob

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We used to use Blackstone AAF on Camp Pickett VA back then most of the time.

My favorite 37th drop story was the time we flunked the ORI at Pope in 71.

All 9 heavy equipment loads landed and short of the DZ, and Bob Craft and Chuck Slagle were the winners, 5 miles short of the DZ on the front steps of some families trailer. But they dropped on time.

Bob

That was my first TDY and First ORI. They put us up at The Prince Charles on Hay St. It was a real dump at the time. Our FE got rolled the first night.

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