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LOCKHEED YMC-130H "HERCULES" "CREDIBLE SPORT"


Skip Davenport
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Tell y'all what, give it to me and I will promise to preseve its history, I'm pretty sure I can fit it and a few others on my acre here in town.

It would be really nice too, I could do engine runs with the tail of the bird pointing at the little turnip heads house behind me LOL

DAN'S BACK!!!!

Like Herkman, I would like to see some pics of your progress on your house!

Also, from the tone of your recent posts it sounds like you are doing better.

Hope so,

Ken

Edited by Mt.crewchief
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Museum's answer to the YMC-130 question:

Our museum collections team debated for many months about bringing in C-130E 63-7868. We looked hard at what it would take to move and preserve the aircraft and balanced that against the fact that the E-models are retiring and 63-7868 has a terrific history. It has been well maintained, giving us much needed time before a new coat of paint will be required. Every museum has to make tough choices about what to preserve and that is why we have chosen to "turn-in" the Credible Sport aircraft to the National Museum of the USAF. Our resources are very limited, and we welcome volunteer and financial support to help preserve the museum's aircraft. As far as the Credible Sport program goes, the museum's C-130H, 74-1686, did little, really. It was modified to test a daring concept, but it never actually used the rocket system in flight (see Jerry L. Thigpen, The Praetorian Starship, pp. 245-246, available online). After Credible Sport was cancelled, 1686 was the testbed for the Talon II program but it never flew again as an airlifter. When it arrived at the museum in 1988, it was a stripped-out hulk, inside and out. C-130E 63-7868, on the other hand, is complete aircraft. It also flew tactical airlift in combat in Africa, all over Southeast Asia, and finally in Southwest Asia during a remarkable 47-year career.

Their answer with regard to the AC-130:

The museum is repainting the outside aircraft on a 5-year cycle. The AC-130 is scheduled for 2013. In the last few years, we have focused on painting smaller aircraft and moving them into our three hangars where they will be preserved out of the weather. Our restoration folks have done a great job with this work. This effort has meant holding off on painting many of our outside aircraft. We must do better, and we're working hard to catch up. We can always use help and we welcome volunteers from the base and the community who would like to work with our restoration crew. A representative from the Museum of Aviation Foundation will also happily talk to anyone who would like to make a financial donation to help preserve the aircraft. I don't buy this as I've been here 5 years and this acft hasn't been touched.

These guys are "Choice"! So now their plan is to cut up Credible Sport, replace it with 7868, and let 7868 deteriorate to hell. Why do they think it takes an AP cert to let an airframe ROT? Another case of the wrong guys in the wrong job. While I'm all for supporting the aircraft, I wouldn't give these guys a dime. They'd just mis-spend it.

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I wonder if the administration at the museum are aware of what the Herc world thinks of this insane Credible Sport decision. Maybe someone living in the area could show them all these comments. I doubt if it would help, though. Just my 2¢

Don R.

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  • 5 years later...

Four years ago and again two years ago I offered C-130A 56-0473 to the NMUSAF at W-P.  I gave them a verified providence that the aircraft had been flown by Bill Hatfield as Horseman #4 in Hercules and the Four Horseman.  The response was, "what's a Four Horseman" and "why would anyone care?"  Even after lobbying by several high profile personnel the museum decided it was just another C-130 and there were hundreds available to choose from anytime they wanted one.  Nada, zero interest.

So, we donated the airplane to the Castle Air Museum in Atwater/Merced California.  The museum is a private foundation, has over 70 aircraft ALL of them outside and they take excellent care of them.  Just because you don't have a big fancy hangar is an extraordinarily lame excuse for not taking proper care of your display aircraft.

The loss of the surviving Credible Sport aircraft is an unforgivable sin against the history of the USAF.  Those who allowed the aircraft to deteriorate have committed heresy and those who have elected to discard it are no better.  The comment regarding the Enterprise is spot on.  Should we consider it a meaningless piece of junk because it never really flew in space and was cannabalizd for parts?  The Credible Sport aircraft is an engineering marvel from a time when there were people at Lockheed and the Air Force who could think and do the unthinkable and undoable and crews who would fly it.  The engineers who designed and built the Credible Sport accomplished a feat nearly on par to those who saved Apollo 13. Understand this isn't just about an airplane, or just a C-130.  It is about a failure to recognize what was important over what was easy.

We will be left to mourn the days when our leadership could have done the right thing but instead elected to make excuses for its failings and instead did what was easy.

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I received a reply:

Mr. Tim Rathbone
Curatorial Assistant
Estrella War Birds Museum
Paso Robles, CA

Dear Mr. Rathbone,

I am responding to your inquiry about the process to request a specific C-130 Hercules aircraft for preservation and display.  

If the Estrella War Birds Museum is interested in surplus aircraft for museum static display, the museum's leadership must first submit a written application package for evaluation and certification to the National Museum of the United States Air Force (NMUSAF).  The NMUSAF staff reviews the package to ensure the museum has a demonstrated record of performance, institutional viability, and the assets or resources sufficient to provide the required care and security of aircraft that may be placed on loan.  You may obtain a package by contacting the museum at:

National Museum of the U.S. Air Force
1100 Spaatz Street
Wright-Patterson Air Force Base
OH 45433-7102

Civilian Museum Certification Program
(937) 255-4692

In accordance with Section 2572, Title 10, United States Code (10 USC § 2572), the USAF may make available for loan to eligible and certified civilian entities condemned or obsolete combat materiel. Within the Air Force, such materiel is loaned through programs administered by the NMUSAF, located at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio.  

The NMUSAF has been delegated the sole authority and responsibility by the Secretary of the Air Force to administer loans to civilian entities in accordance with the provisions of Section 2572 of Title 10 of the US Code.  Department of Defense (DoD) Manual 4160.21M (Defense Material Disposition Manual) and US Air Force Instruction 84-103 (US Air Force Heritage Program) contain supplemental policies, guidance, and procedures.  The NMUSAF staff evaluate, certify, and inspect recipients to ensure that items are properly placed and cared for while on loan.

In accordance with legislative, Federal, DoD, and USAF guidance, the US Government and its components will not incur costs in connection with a loan.  Certified civilian borrowers are responsible for all costs, charges and expenses incident to the loan, including the cost of preparation, demilitarization, hazardous material removal, disassembly, packing, crating, handling, maintenance, repair, restoration, transportation and all other costs incidental to the movement to and re-assembly at the entity’s location; preservation and display while at the location; and disposition at the conclusion of the loan.  Additionally, prospective borrowers should consider the amount, location, and suitability of land needed for the static display and must maintain sufficient liability and casualty insurance while the aircraft is on loan.

Aircraft are only made available via the loan program when all USAF, DoD, and Federal Agency requirements have been satisfied. This means, even if a civilian entity meets the approval criteria and NMUSAF provides them certification to become a borrower, insufficient resources may prevent support of a civilian entity’s request.  

The aircraft of your interest, a Lockheed YMC-130H, USAF serial number 74-1686,  is a US Air Force training asset at Robins Air Force Base, Georgia.  It is not surplus or excess to USAF requirements and therefore not available for loan.  We understand that -1686 was an airframe involved in the USAF development of specialized mission C-130 aircraft during the 1980's.  Its Project Credible Sport I and II modifications demonstrated an important capability and were considered for subsequent Combat Talon II production programs.  If and when declared excess and offered to NMUSAF, we would review the aircraft's historical background; current physical condition and restoration requirements; and potential display opportunities to determine NMUSAF acceptance.

Thank you for asking about this aircraft and I hope this helps to explain the steps the Estrella museum should take to become certified and the current status of the aircraft.

Sincerely,

Mark W.


Mark J. Wertheimer
Staff Curator (NMUSAF/MU)
National Museum of the United States Air Force
1100 Spaatz Street
Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433

COM (937)255-4780
DSN 785-4780

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil

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There is hope yet:

There is hope:
WERTHEIMER, MARK J CIV USAF AFMC NMUSAF/MU <[email protected]> Today at 7:33 AM
To 
[email protected]
Message body
Hello Mr. Rathbone,

It's come to our attention that the General Services Administration (GSA) may be in process to screen 74-1686 for potential reuse. GSA has a disposition program that encompasses many types of property from across many US government agencies and this may be an opportunity for the Estrella museum to obtain the aircraft.

GSA makes federal surplus property available to eligible entities such as state agencies and organizations, state-assisted or state-supported schools, all political subdivisions of the state, and non-profit organizations involved in health, education, or human services which meet the eligibility requirements set by the federal government. Steps for eligible groups to acquire property through GSA are located at this link - https://www.gsa.gov/portal/content/104591.

Interested organizations must apply to the appropriate state’s agency for surplus property and be approved for the program prior to any consideration for receipt of any surplus items. The recipient organization is responsible for all costs and fees involved in obtaining the property and its intended use. The State of California's point of contact is

Darci King, Manager of Federal Surplus
Department of General Services
1700 National Drive
Sacramento, CA 95834
Phone: 916-928-2539
Email: [email protected]
Fax: 916-928-7965

I hope this helps with your interest in this aircraft.

Sincerely,

Mark W.

Mark J. Wertheimer
Staff Curator (NMUSAF/MU)
National Museum of the United States Air Force
1100 Spaatz Street
Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433

COM (937)255-4780
DSN 785-4780

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil

safe_image.php?d=AQDeOsLQ-v0PuITW&w=158&
State agencies and public organizations can learn how GSA assists in acquiring surplus personal property on this page.
GSA.GOV
 
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  • 1 month later...
  • 1 month later...

Man,

It has been a long time since I have been on here...this aircraft is passionate for me as I used to be a crew chief on 74-2065, also a credible sport aircraft that was sent back to Dyess and now at Yokota.  I was in the CLSS (ABDR) at Robins and it is unfortunate that the museum released this aircraft because nobody wanted to pay for it.  I contacted the Robins curator personally and was told that although Credible Sport was a test program, the mission never happened so their stance was, it is NOT a part of AF history.  BS!.  Unfortunately, it is sitting out at Warrior Air Base at Robins with no wings, no Horizontal or Vertical Stab either.  I was pretty pissed after talking with the curator.  Hopefully something can be done, but it is all about money any more. 

Gary

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This is probably not the right place to put this but I got to get it off of my chest. I ran across an article at this site http://www.amc.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/145357/1855-a-special-tale/

In the article it says this, "At the retirement ceremony on Little Rock Air Force Base, Ark., retired Airmen who were crew members or maintainers for 62-1855, the 314th AW or other C-130Es were in attendance. Several are Sliver Star and Distinguished Flying Cross recipients. "

Darn I guess I missed out on that because no one ever contacted me. I was the Assistant Crew Chief on this aircraft 62-1855 when it flew into Vietnam 1966-67 from CCK Taiwan. The Crew Chief a 20 year lifer Staff Sgt was a drunk. He would never fly so I had to take all the flights into Vietnam.  Not so? Well I have the orders assigning me to this aircraft at CCK, Taiwan. You have the story then you have the real story. I could write a book on this aircraft and the days I spent with it in Vietnam. She was as tough as nails. She never let us down. She would fly when the other would not. There was something special about this aircraft. Now I feel better. I am now 71 years old and there is one thing you never forget. You never forget your tail number. I never forgot 62-1855.

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Has been a long time since I have logged on too Gary - I sent an email to ask about this aircraft back in Feb when I heard it was going to be moved - this is the response I got from the museum.

Ms. Bowman,

Thank you for your question. Credible Sport is a fascinating story but several years ago, as we evaluated how to use our limited resources, we decided the Credible Sport aircraft, C-130H 74-1686, was too much for us. The aircraft was modified to test a daring concept-land a C-130 inside a soccer stadium and then take off again while loaded with passengers. But as far as the Credible Sport program goes, 1686 did little, really. A good reference for Credible Sport is Jerry L. Thigpen's book The Praetorian Starship: The Untold Story of the Combat Talon. It's available online from Air University at http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/au/thigpen.pdf Aircraft 74-1686 is specifically mentioned in chapters 9 and 10, on pages 242-264.

Three C-130H aircraft were modified for Credible Sport: 74-1683, 74-1686, and 74-2065. 2065 was only partially modified and was used as a test bed while the other two were being modified. After Credible Sport was cancelled, 2065 was demodified and returned to operational use. 1683 and 1686 were the two primary test aircraft. 1683 was delivered on 17 October 1980 fully configured to Credible Sport specifications. It was destroyed in a dramatic crash landing less than two weeks later on the 29th (there's video on YouTube). According to Thigpen, at the time of the crash, 1686 was still undergoing modifications (p. 245) and "No additional flights were conducted utilizing the rocket system after the 29 October 1980 accident." (Note, p. 246.) In other words, 1686 never used the rocket system in flight. And even if it had used the rockets on a test flight, it was still a dead-end program.

Two major events that happened in quick succession meant the end of Credible Sport: On 31 October Iran announced a plan to release the hostages and on 4 November Ronald Reagan was elected president. The Credible Sport program was cancelled shortly thereafter. With rockets removed, 1686 was used as the test bed for Combat Talon II; Thigpen says it never flew again as an airlifter. 1686 was a stripped out hulk inside and out when it was towed to the museum around 1988. It would have been hugely expensive in both money and manpower to restore 1686 to its Credible Sport configuration. While some places have expressed an interest in the aircraft, none have followed through after evaluating what it would cost to move and restore. They too have focused on preserving aircraft with more significant histories. At this point I think it's unlikely it will go to any museum.

In the case of 74-1686, the essential question we wrestled with was this: "Why preserve a test C-130 when an actual combat veteran C-130 can be preserved?" We've focused our limited resources on preserving two combat veteran C-130s: AC-130A 55-0014, a veteran of Vietnam and Desert Storm, and C-130E 63-7868, a veteran of a rescue mission in the former Belgian Congo in November 1964 and combat support throughout Southeast Asia during the Vietnam War all the way to our post-9/11 wars. As I see it, Credible Sport is a fascinating sidebar to the bigger C-130 story that can be told effectively with a scale model, video, and photos.

I appreciate your concern about the aircraft. I hope this gives some helpful perspective.

V/r

Mike

Mike Rowland
Curator
Museum of Aviation
(478) 926-7311
DSN 468-7311

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