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iPads in the cockpit


PerfManJ
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Hey everyone, I'm new to the forums, but hope I can add some constructive content!

To any active crew members out there:

I've been reading a lot lately about USAF testing out iPads as electronic flight bags (EFB) for C-130 crews. It sounds like they are being used to replace paper manuals, checklists, and charts initially. Has anyone been issued an iPad? Any word on future plans for them, such as weight and balance, performance calculations, or other flight planning?

Thanks!

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The Ipads are great! I never thought it was a good idea, but I've got a stack of manuals as high as me on this tiny thing. I'm not a fan of Apple so I'm having "personal compatibility" issues learning how it works. Right now, Phase I is out and issued. I think Phase II is at the test bases. I think there are concrete plans for 4-5 phases, but I don't know details. They are talking about all of the options you've mentioned, but I don't know which items are in what phase.

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some of that may be okay, and probably the worry of system failure is somewhat over-emphasized, but I off the foloowing.. related I guess... I talked to a land surveyor a while back, talkin' about the differences between the old transit and chain operations to the single station of today.. he told me many survey students now a days are never trained in the old methods, what happens if the satellites, etc crash for whateve reason..... then another story.. several years ago, in , a huge waste of money, Maryland installed some experimental GPS type crap on some of my department's ambulances, and we could track them on the web.. imagine my surprise to see one of them doing 223 miles an hour,nearly 15 miles away, all the while sitting on the apparatus floor............. And some of you old loadies can remember that POS weight and balance computer behind the left wheel well, that never worked, but we had to pre-flight it anyway.............

Giz

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Don't know about any of you but I much prefer having a book to refer to. Not as easy to search through, but I find it easier to flip back and forth through when needed. Plus it's easier to make notes in the margins. My -1, -1-1, and checklist had many notes, etc., in them. As long as the notes were current, etc., no one ever hand any issues with it, especially in the checklist.

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Sounds like the USAF is playing catchup with the rest of the world. Civilian aviation went to laptop and tablet computers years ago. A year ago I had a civilian pilot show me how quick he could find information on his laptop. He had a map chart, air port layout with all nav information in 30 seconds. The real savings is in the cost and keeping the info current. It's my guess the USAF is looking at real big cost savings.

The same pilot that showed me his laptop then gave a complete walk around of his airplane. The air plane was totally made of plastic or carbon fiber. The only medal in the wing was the main wing spar, the rest was all carbon fiber. The inst. panel was heads up, no boiler gauges. Now I felt really out of date and kinda glad I had made the decision to retire.

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I guess I'm old school too because I think keeping a -1 and a 1-1 on the plane is still a good idea. When I went through Altus for fixed wing performance one of the instructors told us about having to do the TOLD data for a US air line crew. They had the performance charts but didn't know how to use them. Gee whiz technology is great when it works.

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Saw the dead battery thing at Dobbins 10-15 years ago as a crewchief we were waiting for the LM to finish his form F and his calculator died on him. He had the deer in the headlights look till the FE offered him his calculator to finish up with. I thought it was funny because in the mid 70's as a 141 FE at Charleston we would be written up if we were caught with one of those new fangled gadgets and using it to figure our TOLD cards...we had to use the old tried and proven slide rule. My how times have changed. Ha Ha, still have my first illegal pocket calc. that I bought in Japan in 1975! Bill :)

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I learned Form Fs "öld school" and it has come in handy; batteries do die at the worst possible time. But the ability to correct an error or load change on a Form F in about ten seconds is awesome.

Edited by talonlm
Because I have fat fingers.
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I could be wrong because I've been out about a year now, but I don't think they're replacing FE -1-1 with the iPad. Even if they did, I don't know any of the AFSOC FEs who would NOT still carry their -1-1 anyway.

That said, times, they are a-changin! When we first started mulling over epubs seriously about 10 years ago and took our first tentative steps towards it, we were having a discussion in OGV about open book tests. The policy at the time, as I think it was pretty much everywhere, was you brought your own pubs to take your open book tests with. We had one older Nav saying that if we allowed the crew dogs to use epubs, they'd still have to bring their own pubs for open book testing. This, of course, defeats the purpose of epubs entirely. As we got deeper into the debate, all of us older guys agreed that we learned as much looking for answers as we did studying on our own. And we didn't want to 'short change' the next generation by letting them just do a 'search' for the answer on their epubs. So our policy evolved to no epubs allowed for testing, but we provided the pubs. In the end, it never really materialized fully, so it was a moot point. One of the things I pointed out during the debate though, was that as foreign as reading on a screen was to most of us, we had to realize that the current and future generations likely are more comfortable reading and studying that way. Heck, many public schools have gone ebook because it's so much cheaper than traditional text books. Part of it is what you know & comfort zones and part of it is simple evolution.

As for the calculator generation not being able to do a Form F. At my civilian operator, as the FO, I to do the weight and balance. It's not like a Form F, it's more like the envelope chart in the back of the books (more like what I saw the RAF using). Most LM can load a plane w/o a Form F and the Herk will fly well beyond either limit, so you really just need to be close (although that is definitely not the legal answer, nor am I advocating that, but knowing what your plane will/will-not do is always useful). The old saying, 'Measure with a micrometer, mark with a crayon, cut with an axe' springs to mind! ;) So, are calculators useful? Absolutely. Can I do my job w/o one. You bet, but why? Many times I've not had a calculator already - it's simple addition for the most part. ;)

I do agree that allowing calculators in schools means that a majority of kids and adults today cannot do long division by hand. But do they need to? I *feel* they should be able to, but, do they really NEED to? The answer is a resounding NO. Batteries do die, but there are so many electronic devices these days and virtually all of them have basic calculator functions built in that it is no longer a novelty, nor even a convenience, it just IS. I tend to agree with the older generation that it's still nice to know how to do it (I can still even do square roots long hand if needed, but why bother?), but it's evolving regardless of what we think it should be.

And when I left AFSOC last year, they were just getting iPads, but they were so locked down and restricted, they may as well have gotten Kindles or Nooks - they were a glorified e-reader and nothing more. I know they want to evolve to something else, but they weren't there yet. That said, many of the major airlines are using them, the FAA accepts them, and it is the future...whether we like it or not. ;)

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I was absolutely amazed at the publications that AMC has provided us on the IPads. I was a hard-line, anti-e-pubs guy until I realized you can find whatever information you want on this device. If I'm in the middle of JAIing a Heavy Equipment load and have a 13C7-5 question (for example), all I have to do is turn it on, put in the password, open the manual and hit search.

I haven't dug very far into it, but I think the -1-1 is in there.

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I was absolutely amazed at the publications that AMC has provided us on the IPads. I was a hard-line, anti-e-pubs guy until I realized you can find whatever information you want on this device. If I'm in the middle of JAIing a Heavy Equipment load and have a 13C7-5 question (for example), all I have to do is turn it on, put in the password, open the manual and hit search.

I haven't dug very far into it, but I think the -1-1 is in there.

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Sir, I will have you know I was a truckie, meaning I never had good sense, the dainty little fellers had to have a hose line with them, we opened the doors and searched the buildings and all that, with only an axe or halligan bar, an obvioius transition from a loady wouldn't you think?????????????????

Giz

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I have agree with what "US HERK" said (above). An other good reason for using the laptop or tablet computer is it is close at hand (within easy reach) on the flight deck. A briefcase full of books and charts is usually not kept within easy reach of the pilots position.

Honestly, I don't think that's a good reason. You (or your CP) should get all the charts required for the flight and PUT them in easy reach of the pilots.

The one thing I prefer paper charts to electronic is the ability to open a big chart up to its full extent and get a good perspective of where things are in relation to each other and how far apart they are. Hard to do on a 10" screen no matter what level you zoom to. And I realize the EFBs will do distance calculations and all that, but it's not the same as having the 'big picture'.

My point? As usual, it's long-winded (because I can type like a girl), but it's simply that for all of their advantages, epubs come with their own limitations, problems, and challenges. Some of the 'excuses' for using them don't wash...and please don't kid yourselves about why the USAF is going this direction; it's money. Just like the airlines - it's cheaper to subscribe to an electronic chart service than to pay for paper delivery. It's not that they're necessarily 'better' or more 'user friendly'. There are some great advantages...but they come at a price. There is no free lunch.

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US Herk is absolutely correct: switching to iPads is about saving money for USAF. In addition to saving money on printing and distributing paper pubs, removing all of the manuals from the aircraft saves weight and fuel. The civil aviation world has been using EFBs of some form for years for both of those reasons. But USAF also has to invest in an IT infrastructure to manage and distribute epubs.

iPads are powerful tools and have a lot of potential. But like with any tool, you have to know how to use it. It is still crucial that the pilots, flight engineers, and navigators know how use the flight planning applications and understand the data that they produce. For example, a full understanding of the data presented in the -1-1 is necessary to accurately compute TOLD. I'm sure there are a lot of FEs out there who would love to have a application to compute TOLD, but first you have to know how to run the charts and complete a TOLD card. In the J, there is no FE and it is the pilots' responsibility to plan the entire flight, including TOLD. There are onboard systems that do much of the work for them, so I doubt they ever have to crack open their -1-1.

I think that USAF using iPads is a move in the right direction as it allows an enormous amount of information to be at your fingertips, and it is easily searchable and up to date. There is also the potential for iPads to host applications that automate weight and balance, TOLD, and other flight planning. However, training still needs to focus on the foundational knowledge required to understand the calculations, not just on how to punch in the numbers...otherwise the iPad is just a 'black box.'

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Honestly, I don't think that's a good reason. You (or your CP) should get all the charts required for the flight and PUT them in easy reach of the pilots.

The one thing I prefer paper charts to electronic is the ability to open a big chart up to its full extent and get a good perspective of where things are in relation to each other and how far apart they are. Hard to do on a 10" screen no matter what level you zoom to. And I realize the EFBs will do distance calculations and all that, but it's not the same as having the 'big picture'.

My point? As usual, it's long-winded (because I can type like a girl), but it's simply that for all of their advantages, epubs come with their own limitations, problems, and challenges. Some of the 'excuses' for using them don't wash...and please don't kid yourselves about why the USAF is going this direction; it's money. Just like the airlines - it's cheaper to subscribe to an electronic chart service than to pay for paper delivery. It's not that they're necessarily 'better' or more 'user friendly'. There are some great advantages...but they come at a price. There is no free lunch.

Have to agree with you. Other things to consider - if you drop your iPad it's probably now a paper weight. If you drop your -1 you just pick up the pages and get them back into order.

Another obscure reason, paper makes a pretty good tinder, plastic does not. You know for those times when you need a starter for a campfire.

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in regards to old versus new,,,,,,consider this...........ya may not need to be able to build a watch to tell time, but ya sure need to know how to wind it......the ol' Mark 1A brain and a -1, or -9 or whatever will work all the time........My feeling, comin' from my days of bein' a fire service instructor, is this.......Yeah, googlin' and all that can give ya answers, b ut if you have to physically find the information, you remember more of it. and you also pick up other things along the way

Giz

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