SEFEGeorge Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 in regards to old versus new,,,,,,consider this...........ya may not need to be able to build a watch to tell time, but ya sure need to know how to wind it......the ol' Mark 1A brain and a -1, or -9 or whatever will work all the time........My feeling, comin' from my days of bein' a fire service instructor, is this.......Yeah, googlin' and all that can give ya answers, b ut if you have to physically find the information, you remember more of it. and you also pick up other things along the way Giz So true Giz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrainLA Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 //Pseudo-commercial... sorry// I've been trying to get EFB technology into the hands of our USAF Loadmasters, since I worked a project for the C-17 SPO further back into the last century than we are into this new one. Current version is called "Loadmaster ToolKit", which I've been offering to let USAF try -- for FREE! -- for a couple years now. LTK runs quite nicely on an iPad, but the preferred hardware is the more rugged, lighter, pocket-able iPhone or iPod Touch. I think LTK responds to most of the concerns* folks have raised up-thread. Visit our website "LoadmasterToolKit.com" for lots more info. And if you go there with an "iThing", you'll see a "Try itNow!" tab which will let you experiment with the Form-F app included in the LTK package. WARNING -- LTK's Form-F app is ***NOT YET CERTIFIED FOR OPERATIONAL USE!*** because that demo/prototype version is running with dummy data/parameters. When someone in the Air Force actually says they want to use LTK, I can load it with real-world information, then get the appropriate certifiers to test and approve it. But till I get past this Catch-22, the operative phrase is: "You Fly -- you DIE!" We would welcome anyone's questions, comments, or suggestions; and I'd really appreciate help or suggestions on getting past this Catch-22. //Larry Loadmaster ToolKit -- Lighten the Load, on Loadmasters, Airlifters, and Taxpayers! ------------------------ * CONCERN -- LTK RESPONSE: -> Dead battery/Broken hardware -- we will also load Form-F and other key LTK apps and docs onto Pilot's iPad, so you've got an on-mission hot spare -> Old-School Skills -- LTK closely follows the look-and-feel, and process, of the paper Form-F; using it's like practice for the "old school" quiz -> Manual/TO Usability -- rather than just "dumping in the PDFs", we intend to provide a custom reader app that allows searching, annotating, cross-reference, etc -> Canned Form-Fs -- Supported: pick your tail number (to fetch Form-C and config-specific Data), and dial in fuel and crew. In well under a minute, you should be ready to e-file and go fly. -> No more Navs/FEs -- perhaps... But Pilots ain't going to get their hands dirty pushing pallets and heaving Hummers, so there'll ALWAYS need to be a Loadmaster aboard, even after the front seats are outsourced to an XBOX jockey at Creech. (When THAT happens, 'tho, you may wanna retrain into "Physical Fitness Monitor" career field -- by one name or another, there will ALWAYS be a PFT!) // end pitch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDizzle Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 What happens when you're doing a real world NVG low level with bad guys out there looking up at the sky and the FE/Pilot has to turn on an ipad to check some numbers? You're going to put a nice bright light in the flight deck for someone to aim at and ruin your own night vision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Railrunner130 Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 So far the development team has done a good job and I'm not one to give people credit when they do things like this. Things tend to get severely jacked up early on. Not so far. I'm sure they're taking a good look at this for the future phases when the Engineer applications become available. But for right now, the rule is no Ipad usage below 10,000 feet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NATOPS1 Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 [quote name=' Originally Posted by gizzard ...ya may not need to be able to build a watch to tell time, but ya sure need to know how to wind it...... Giz SEFEGeorge']So true Giz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEFEGeorge Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Using an iPad in space is a little different than flying around a combat zone trying to get some info or calculate some numbers. I'd much rather grab my binder and my little red lens pen light. iPads, etc., are nice but if you don't know your way around a -1, 1-1, -9, etc., then, in my book, your not much of an FE or LM. Hell any dummy can grab an iPad and do a search but when it comes to actually being able to find it yourself....... Batteries don't die in the binders and if you drop your binder it'll work when you pick it up. IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gizzard Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Using an iPad in space is a little different than flying around a combat zone trying to get some info or calculate some numbers. I'd much rather grab my binder and my little red lens pen light. iPads, etc., are nice but if you don't know your way around a -1, 1-1, -9, etc., then, in my book, your not much of an FE or LM. Hell any dummy can grab an iPad and do a search but when it comes to actually being able to find it yourself....... Batteries don't die in the binders and if you drop your binder it'll work when you pick it up. IMHO. I have followin' this a while and have come to a conclusion.....it's generational........and, sorry to say, the trend is to get it done the easy way, no matter what.................And I really don't think a full set of pubs from an entire crew is gonna make THAT much difference in load capacity and fuel consumption........... this whole easy thing has invaded all aspects of life. I used to work for a buddy of mine who had a remodeling business,, when he'd get someone claiming he was a carpenter, Rick would hand him a framing square and a piece of 2x12 and tell him lay out a stair jack/ Ya wanna guess how many could do it without tryin' to look it up somewhere???????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDizzle Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 I'm sure they're taking a good look at this for the future phases when the Engineer applications become available. But for right now, the rule is no Ipad usage below 10,000 feet. We rarely get that high on a training sortie so you'd have to keep your pubs nearby anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PerfManJ Posted June 3, 2013 Author Share Posted June 3, 2013 I came across these two articles recently regarding the use of iPads by DOD and specifically USAF. It sounds like USAF (at least AMC) is moving forward with plans to replace paper pubs and they are now cleared with use on DOD networks. AMC is planning to buy up to 18,000 devices and I had read something previously about interest from AFSOC as well. Any updates on how the transition is going in the C-130 community? http://www.thestreet.com/story/11923560/1/air-force-targets-50m-savings-with-apple-ipads.html http://www.stripes.com/news/pentagon-approves-use-of-advanced-devices-from-apple-and-others-but-don-t-expect-quick-change-1.221284 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEFEGeorge Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 Fine, give me an iPad, but you damn well better give me a full set of pubs as well. I'd rather trust my pencil and -1-1 to calculate TOLD data, especially when it's critical, than trust it to a bunch of electrons running around some circuits. Even TOLD data from LRF, EDF, etc., was done using the charts instead of the whiz wheel. Granted the wheel and the iPad are not exactly the same, but are you going to trust your butt to some programmer and hope he doesn't make an error in a line of code? Don't get me wrong, I like my computer. Be hell to pay if I couldn't get on it and get some things done. Even if it's just to read the news. But if I'm going to put my butt on the line with some calculated data I want it to be my calculated data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US Herk Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 AFSOC had them already when I retired, but at the time, they weren't allowed to connect to anything and had most of the apps disabled or removed from them - they were, effectively, expensive e-readers. Sounds like they're find a way to sort that out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PerfManJ Posted June 4, 2013 Author Share Posted June 4, 2013 The article says AMC is going for the weight savings so I don't think they'll have paper backups for everything. Personally, I think it would be difficult to run the 1-1 charts on a screen; I never liked doing it on a laptop or desktop computer screen. iPads have a lot of potential and civil operators (including major airlines) already use them in place of paper pubs. Any application developed to compute TOLD, W&B, etc. would be thoroughly tested and vetted compared to the paper pubs before implementation. The J has an on-board system for computing TOLD that only requires minor mitigation. But in the end, any tool requires the right operator - you still have to understand the data and how to compute it yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEFEGeorge Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Guess I'm just old school. I'd rather calculate all the TOLD, and when needed W&B, data myself. Pencil and charts. Leaving all the re-checking the data to electronics might be ok, but not initial calcs. I do like electronics and gadgets, but....... I'm just not ready to go all Star Trek, and sure don't have Spock to do all the manual stuff in his head if something does happen to the electronic calculator. Using a hand held calculator was the extent of my using electronics when flying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spectre623 Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 How would a SMOE picker work on an I Pad when figgerin' TOLD or Long Range Cruise Data......just wondering. Ha Ha Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdaley Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Don't know about the military puters but the civilian ones have no charts. All the data from the charts is plugged into the puters and you just plug in the variable numbers and go. Only problems I ever saw with that was bad data inputs and failure to check the other guys work. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEFEGeorge Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 PA - check, OAT - check, runway length - check, field elevation - check, gross weight - check, RCR - check, yada-yada-yada. Just hope nothing got fat-fingered. Charts and a pencil. check, checked again. Everything's cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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