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C-130A 55-0041 - could this ever have been used as an ECM or SIGNIT aircraft?


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C-130A 50041 c/n [cn]3068[/cn] visited one of the Royal Air Force bases in Singapore, RAF Changi (now Singapore Airport) in January 1963. It was accompanying a US Navy WV-2Q 135749 which at the time was carrying a tailcode of 'KR2'. This 'Willie Victor' was later shot down whilst serving with VQ-1 in 1969 by North Korean Mig-17's as it was carrying out a patrol along the North Korean coast. The 31 crew all perished.

The C-130A 50041 at the time looked like a C-130B-II version, although I see your records still show it as a standard C-130A. It had Hamilton Standard 4 bladed props, the extra large underwing tanks (ECM pods) and had a radio aerial from mid-fuselage to tail. All these fittings were I believe on the C-130B-II's.

Another C-130A 70483 came in a day or so before 50041 and the WV-2 and it also had 4 bladed props, but no underwing tanks at all. All the previous Hercs, both USAF and Aussie that I'd seen had been normal C-130A's with the 3 bladed Aero Product props.

Was 50041 possibly operating with the 6091st Reconnaissance Squadron at Yokota, which used the C-130B-II in the ECM role?

By the way this was the second time that a US Air Force C-130 had accompanied a US Navy WV-2 into RAF Changi. The earlier occasion had been when WV-2 145926 from the Pacific Missile Range, NAS Point Mugu, had come in with C-130A 50037...but they had been tracking Cmdr.John Glenn's splashdown in 'Freedom 7' (Feb '62)

Here's one of my photos of 50041 with it's Navy friend:

David Taylor

Dorset UK

Visit www.focalplanes.co.uk to see hundreds of aircraft photos from Singapore 1961-1964.

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Postfade, your A model looks to have the tail number photo shopped onto the vert fin. There were no 4 bladed props on A models in 1963. Also note the single saber drain mast on the bottom of each engine. All A models hade two drain masts on the bottom of the engine. And when you blow the pic up you cannot see the center mounted pressure safety valve in the cargo door which the A model has. The GTC exhaust and the intake door do not look like an A model. Sorry but you have a B model here. Bill

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Agree with Spectre. I believe this aircraft to be a 6091st C-130B II displaying a bogus C-130A tail number.

There were eight C-130A II aircraft. 55-0041 was not one of them.

I served in the C-130A II squadron from 62 to 66. It was not unusual to fly missions showing a bogus tail number. Seems this practice was also commonplace in the 6091st.

BTW, the two squadrons missions were identical, but was not ecm.

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Here are the C-130A-II acft.

C-130A-II Dream Boat Aircraft

56-0484, C/N [cn] 3029[/cn]:

May 1958 to 7406th SS (USAFE), RHIN-MAIN AB, GERMANY

August 1972 to 924th TAG (AFRES) Ellington AFB, TX

April 1973 to 919th TAG (AFRES) Duke Field, FL

June 1973 to 133rd TAG (ANG) Minneapolis-St. Paul MAP, MN

January 1974 to 118th TAG (ANG) Nashville Metro AP, TN

February 1976 to 133rd TAW (ANG) Minneapolis-ST. Paul MAP, MN

October 1981 to 356th TAS (AFRES) Rickenbacker AFB, OH

January 1987 to Storage Davis-Monthan AFB, AZ FAA N137FF

Scrapped @ Tucson, AZ

56-0525, C/N [cn] 3133[/cn]:

July 1958 to 7406th SS (USAFE), RHIN-MAIN AB, GERMANY

November 1966 4409th SS (TAC) MacDill AFB, FL

August 1968 to TEMCO, Majors Field, Greenville, TX

November 1968 to 7406th SS RHIN-MAIN AB, GERMANY

September 1971 to TEMCO, Majors Field, Greenville, TX

November 1972 to 146th TAG (ANG) Van Nuys MAP, CA

June 1973 to 133rd TAG (ANG) Minneapolis-St. Paul MAP, MN

November 1981 to 356th TAS (AFRES) Rickenbacker AFB, OH

June 1986 Dropped from inventory. Last seen configured as a pseudo AC-130U, at USAF Rome Lab’s Stockbridge Facility in New York, mounted for electronic testing.

56-0528, C/N [cn] 3136[/cn]:

January 1958 to 7406th SS (USAFE), RHIN-MAIN AB, Germany

September 2, 1958 shot down by Soviet Mig-17/FRESCOs.

On 2 September 1958, while flying a mission out of Incirlik AB, Turkey, aircraft 56-0528 strayed into Soviet controlled Armenia and was shot down.

The 7406th lost a crew of six:

Capt. Rudy J. Swiestra

Capt. Paul E. Duncan

Capt. Edward J. Jeruss

1st Lt. John E. Simpson

1st Lt. Ricardo M. Villarreal

SSgt. Laroy Price

The 6911th Radio Group, Mobile (RGM) lost 11 men.

56-0530, C/N [cn]3138[/cn]:

September 1958 to 7406th SS (USAFE), RHIN-MAIN AB, GERMANY

November 1965 to 15th TFW (TAC) MacDill AFB, FL

February 1966 to 4409th SS (TAC) MacDill AFB, FL

August 1966 to 7406th SS RHIN-MAIN AB, Germany

April 1972 to TEMCO, Majors Field, Greenville, TX

December 1972 to 940th TAG (AFRES) McClellan AFB, CA

April 1973 to 935th TAG (AFRES) Richards-Gebaur AFB, MO

January 1974 to 195th TAG (ANG) Van Nuys MAP, CA

October 1974 to 164th TAG (ANG) NAS Memphis, TN

July 1975 to 133rd TAW (ANG) Minneapolis-St. Paul MAP, MN

November 1981 to 356th TAS (AFRES) Rickenbacker AFB, OH

September 1986 to 142nd FIG (ANG) Portland MAP, OR

December 1986 to 143rd TAW (ANG) Quonset State AP, RI

February 1987 to Storage Davis-Monthan AFB, AZ

October 1988 Dropped from inventory transfer to other agency FAA N131FF operated by AERO Firefighting SVC Co.

Owned by IAR, Mesa, AZ

56-0534, C/N [cn] 3142[/cn]:

August 1958 to 7406th SS (USAFE), RHIN-MAIN AB, GERMANY

February 1967 to 41st AD HQ (PACAF) TDY, Yokota AB, Japan

July 1967 to 7406th SS (USAFE), RHIN-MAIN AB, GERMANY

December 1969 to 4409th SS Homestead AFB, FL

August 1971 to 7406th SS RHIN-MAIN AB, GERMANY.

October 1972 to 919th TAG (AFR) Duke Field, FL

July 1973 to 923rd TAG (AFR) Richards-Gebaur AFB, MO.

October 1973 to 157th TAG (ANG) Pease AFB, NH.

August 1975 to 133rd TAW (ANG) Minneapolis-St. Paul MAP, MN

December 1981 to 356th TAS (AFR) Rickenbacker AFB, OH

September 1986 to Storage Davis-Monthan AFB, AZ

October 1988 Dropped from inventory transfer to other agency. FAA N????FF operated by Hawkins & Powers a firefighting Company.

Owned by IAR, Mesa, AZ

56-0535, C/N [cn] 3143[/cn]:

July 1960 to 7406th SS (USAFE), RHIN-MAIN AB, GERMANY

August 1972 to 940th TAG (AFR) McClellan AFB, CA

August 1973 to 133rd TAG (ANG) Minneapolis-St. Paul MAP, MN

October 1981 to 356th TAS (AFR) Rickenbacker AFB, OH

June 1986 to 142nd FIG (ANG) Portland MAP, OR

September 1986 to Storage Davis-Monthan AFB, AZ

October 1988 Dropped from inventory transfer to other agency. FAA N133FF Operated by Hawkins & Powers a firefighting Company.

56-0538, C/N [cn] 3146[/cn]:

January 1959 to 7406th SS (USAFE), RHIN-MAIN AB, GERMANY

March 1966 aircraft deployed to 4409th SS (TAC), MacDill AFB, FL Aircraft returned to Rhein Main

June 1967. Feb 1972 to TEMCO, Majors Field, Greenville, TX

August 1972 to 109th TAG (ANG), Schnenectady County MAP, NY

November 1972 to 133rd TAG (ANG), Minneapolis-St. Paul MAP, MN

December 1981 to 356th TAS (USAFR), Rickenbacker AFB, OH

November 1986 to Storage Davis-Monthan AFB, AZ

October 1988 Dropped from inventory transfer to other agency. FAA N134FF operated by Hawkins & Powers a firefighting Company.

In 2002 while operating as a firefighter both wings separated, in flight, from fuselage.

56-0540, C/N [cn] 3148[/cn]:

October 1958 to 7406th SS (USAFE), RHIN-MAIN AB, GERMANY

December 1966 to TEMCO, Majors Field, Greenville, TX

Apr 1967 to 4409th SS (TAC), MacDill AFB, FL

December 1968 to 4409th SS (TAC), Homestead, AFB FL

December 1969 to TEMCO, Majors Field, Greenville, TX

April 1970 to 7406th SS (USAFE), RHIN-MAIN AB, GERMANY

February 1972 to TEMCO, Majors Field, Greenville, TX

August 1972 to 167th TAG (ANG), Martinsburg MAP, WV

March 1973 to Hayes Aircraft, Birmingham MAP AL

July 1973 to 133rd TAG (ANG), Minneapolis-St. Paul MAP, MN

October 1981 to 356th TAS (USAFR), Rickenbacker AFB, OH

August 1986 to Storage, Davis-Monthan AFB, AZ

October 1988 Dropped from inventory by transfer to US Forestry Service. FAA N135FF Operated by AERO Firefighting SVC Co.

On August 13, 1994, while operating as a firefighter, the right main wing separated, in flight, from the aircraft.

56-0541, C/N [cn] 3149[/cn]:

November 1958 to 7406th SS (USAFE), RHIN-MAIN AB, GERMANY

February 1967 to HQ 41st AD (PACAF), Yokota AB, Japan

May 1967 to 7406th SS (USAFE), RHIN-MAIN AB, GERMANY

August 1968 to 4409th SS (TAC), Homestead AFB, FL

September 1968 to 7406th SS (USAFE), RHIN-MAIN AB, GERMANY

January 1972 to TEMCO, Majors Field, Greenville, TX

July 1972 to 146th TAG (ANG), Van Nuys MAP, CA

August 1973 to 133rd TAG (ANG), Minneapolis-St. Paul MAP, MN

May 1974 to 157th TAG (ANG), Pease AFB, NH

Scrapped by IAR, Mesa, AZ

C-130A-II Dreamboat Aircraft No2

56-0484, c/n [cn] 3029[/cn]:

May 1958 to 7406th Support Squadron (USAFE), R/M AB

August 1972 to 924th Tactical Airlift Group (AFRES) Ellington AFB TX

April 1973 to 919th Tactical Airlift Group (AFRES) Duke Field FL

June 1973 to 133rd Tactical Airlift Group (ANG) Minneapolis-St. Paul MAP MN

January 1974 to 118th Tactical Airlift Group (ANG) Nashville Metro AP TN

February 1976 to 133rd Tactical Airlift Wing (ANG) Minneapolis-ST. Paul MAP MN

October 1981 to 356th Tactical Airlift Squadron (AFRES) Rickenbacker AFB OH

January 1987 to Storage Davis Monthan AFB AZ FAA N137FF - operated by Hemet Valley Flying Service a firefighting Company

Aircraft scrapped in 2000.

56-0525, c/n [cn] 3133[/cn]:

July 1958 to 7406th Support Squadron (USAFE), R/M AB

November 1966 4409th Support Squadron (TAC) MacDill AFB FL

August 1968 to TEMCO Majors Field Greenville TX

November 1968 to 7406th Support Squadron R/M AB

September 1971 to TEMCO Majors Field Greenville TX

November 1972 to 146th Tactical Airlift Group (ANG) Van Nuys MAP CA

June 1973 to 133rd Tactical Airlift Group (ANG) Minneapolis-St. Paul MAP MN

November 1981 to 356th Tactical Airlift Squadron (AFRES) Rickenbacker AFB OH

June 1986 Dropped from inventory. Last seen configured as a pseudo AC-130U, at USAF Rome Lab’s Stockbridge Facility in New York, mounted for electronic testing.

56-0528, c/n [cn] 3136[/cn]:

January 1958 to 7406th Support Squadron (USAFE), R/M AB Germany

September 2, 1958 shot down by Soviet Mig-17/FRESCOs.

56-0530, c/n [cn] 3138[/cn]:

September 1958 to 7406th Support Squadron (USAFE), R/M AB

November 1965 to 15th Tactical Fighter Wing (TAC) MacDill AFB FL

February 1966 to 4409th Support Squadron (TAC) MacDill AFB FL

August 1966 to 7406th Support Squadron R/M AB Germany

April 1972 to TEMCO Majors Field Greenville TX

December 1972 to 940th Tactical Airlift Group (AFRES) McClellan AFB CA

April 1973 to 935th Tactical Airlift Group (AFRES) Richards- Gebaur AFB MO

January 1974 to 195th Tactical Airlift Group (ANG) Van Nuys MAP CA

October 1974 to 164th Tactical Airlift Group (ANG) NAS Memphis TN

July 1975 to 133rd Tactical Airlift Wing (ANG) Minneapolis-St. Paul MAP MN

November 1981 to 356th Tactical Airlift Squadron (AFRES) Rickenbacker AFB OH

September 1986 to 142nd Fighter-Interceptor Group (ANG) Portland MAP OR

December 1986 to 143rd Tactical Airlift Wing (ANG) Quonset State AP RI

February 1987 to Storage Davis Monthan AFB AZ

October 1988 Dropped from inventory transfer to other agency FAA N131FF - operated by AERO Firefighting SVC Co.

Aircraft parked.

56-0534, c/n [cn] 3142[/cn]:

August 1958 to 7406th Support Squadron (USAFE), R/M AB

February 1967 to 41st Air Division HQ (PACAF) TDY, Yokota AB, Japan

July 1967 to 7406th Support Squadron (USAFE), R/M AB

December 1969 to 4409th Support Squadron Homestead AFB, FL

August 1971 to 7406th Support Squadron R/M AB.

October 1972 to 919th Tactical Airlift Group (AFR) Duke Field FL

July 1973 to 923rd Tactical Airlift Group (AFR) Richards-Gebaur AFB MO.

October 1973 to 157th Tactical Airlift Group (ANG) Pease AFB NH.

August 1975 to 133rd Tactical Airlift Wing (ANG) Minneapolis-St. Paul MAP MN

December 1981 to 356th Tactical Airlift Squadron (AFR) Rickenbacker AFB OH

September 1986 to Storage Davis-Monthan AFB AZ

October 1988 Dropped from inventory transfer to other agency. FAA N????FF - operated by Hawkins & Powers a firefighting Company.

Aircraft parked in 2000.

56-0535, c/n [cn] 3143[/cn]:

July 1960 to 7406th Support Squadron (USAFE), R/M AB

August 1972 to 940th Tactical Airlift Group (AFR) McClellan AFB CA

August 1973 to 133rd Tactical Airlift Group (ANG) Minneapolis- St. Paul MAP MN

October 1981 to 356th Tactical Airlift Squadron (AFR) Rickenbacker AFB OH

June 1986 to 142nd Fighter-Interceptor Group (ANG) Portland MAP OR

September 1986 to Storage Davis-Monthan AFB AZ.

October 1988 Dropped from inventory transfer to other agency. FAA N133FF - operated by Hawkins & Powers a firefighting Company.

Aircraft parked.

56-0538, c/n [cn] 3146[/cn]:

January 1959 to 7406th Support Squadron (USAFE), R/M AB

March 1966 aircraft deployed to 4409th Support Squadron (TAC), MacDill AFB FL Aircraft returned to Rhein Main

June 1967. Feb 1972 to TEMCO, Greenville TX

August 1972 to 109th Tactical Airlift Group (ANG), Schnenectady County MAP NY

November 1972 to 133rd Tactical Airlift Group (ANG), Minneapolis-St Paul MAP MN

December 1981 to 356th Tactical Airlift Squadron (USAFR), Rickenbacker AFB OH

November 1986 to Storage Davis-Monthan AFB AZ

October 1988 Dropped from inventory transfer to other agency. FAA N134FF operated by Hawkins & Powers a firefighting Company.

In 2002 while operating as a firefighter both wings separated, in flight, from fuselage.

56-0540, c/n [cn] 3148[/cn]:

October 1958 to 7406th Support Squadron (USAFE), R/M AB

December 1966 to TEMCO, Greenville TX Apr 1967 to 4409th Support Squadron (TAC), MacDill AFB FL

December 1968 to 4409th Support Squadron (TAC), Homestead AFB

December 1969 to TEMCO, Greenville TX

April 1970 to 7406th Support Squadron (USAFE), R/M AB

February 1972 to TEMCO, Greenville TX

August 1972 to 167th Tactical Airlift Group (ANG), Martinsburg MAP WV

March 1973 to Hayes Aircraft, Birmingham MAP AL

July 1973 to 133rd Tactical Airlift Group (ANG), Minneapolis- St. Paul MAP MN

October 1981 to 356th Tactical Airlift Squadron (USAFR), Rickenbacker AFB OH

August 1986 to Storage, Davis-Monthan AFB AZ

October 1988 Dropped from inventory by transfer to US Forestry Service. FAA N135FF - operated by AERO Firefighting SVC Co.

On August 13, 1994, while operating as a firefighter, the right main wing separated, in flight, from the aircraft.

56-0541, c/n [cn] 3149[/cn]:

November 1958 to 7406th Support Squadron (USAFE), R/M AB

February 1967 to HQ 41st Air Division (Pacific Air Forces), Yokota AB Japan

May 1967 to 7406th Support Squadron (USAFE), R/M AB

August 1968 to 4409th Support Squadron (TAC), Homestead AFB FL

September 1968 to 7406th Support Squadron (USAFE), R/M AB

January 1972 to TEMCO, Greenville TX

July 1972 to 146th Tactical Airlift Group (ANG), Van Nuys MAP CA

August 1973 to 133rd Tactical Airlift Group (ANG), Minneapolis-St. Paul MAP MN

May 1974 to 157th Tactical Airlift Group (ANG), Pease AFB NH

June 1974 to 133rd Tactical Airlift Group (ANG), Minneapolis- St. Paul MAP MN

March 1982 to 356th Tactical Airlift Squadron (USAFR), Rickenbacker AFB OH

August 1986 to Aerospace Maintenance & Reg Center, Davis- Monthan AFB AZ

October 1988 Dropped from inventory by transfer to US Forestry Service FAA N136FF.

Plane parked. For sale in Chandler, Arizona.

Edited by Dutch
Correction
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Thanks for proving that it's a C-130B-11....but I didn't realise that it could have been carrying the tail nos of an A model. So the other C-130 in at that time 70483 was also 'in disquise', see below for photo of it's engines.

How often would ELINT USAF C-130's be working with a US Navy electronics plane, like the 'Willie Victor', that it was with, I wonder and would the WV-2 135749's tail code of 'KR-2' be false as US Navy Squadron VQ-1 carried 'PR' normally I believe?

On whom would they have been snooping in early 1963? Vietnam hadn't yet caught fire, The US, Aussie and Brit jets had returned from their detachments in Thailand and Laos was only just getting interesting. I guess the later one, unless the US was showing interest in Indonesia. Sukarno there was pissed off with the newly formed Malay Federation and was shortly to lead them into 'Confrontation' with the Brits. He also was getting lots of Russian jets, including 'Badgers' so perhaps the US was showing an interest in those. However the US politicians were still backing Sukarno at that time.

Here's 70483, obviously not an C-130A model as that serial suggests:

David Taylor

www.focalplanes.co.uk -aircraft photos from the Far East in the early '60s.

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Thanks for the pictures, interesting read.

Dutch great list, thanks, a few updates

56-0484 was 3092 56-0540 3148

56-0484 was shredded at Tucson

56-0530 and 56-0534 are owned by IAR Mesa AZ

56-0505 is derelict at Greybull WY

56-0541 was broken up for parts by IAR

Bob

My guess B-II spying on Indonesia

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It was not unusual to fly missions showing a bogus tail number. Seems this practice was also commonplace in the 6091st.

A friend of mine was a loadmaster in the 7405th at Rhein Main. He told me one time in Athens (I think), someone came up to the crew and told them that their tail number belonged to an airplane that had crashed years ago.

He was also a bartender at the American Legion in Waldorf. Yeah, you know who I'm talkin' about Hush.

Don R.

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David

Thanks that is a great website. Wonderful pictures of a great time in aviation history.

I wonder how those US Army Caribous got there. Maybe early participants in the Vietnamese War games?

Thanks again

Bob

www.focalplanes.co.uk

Here is the pic from his website of 57-0483, looks like 4 bladed props to me?

Edited by bobdaley
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Correct, also note the overboard urinal tube at the ramp hinge point...another B model innovation, not to mention the B model engines and props. Bill :).

The B IIs' and A IIs' were equipped with an airline type toilet that included a urinal. That urinal could, at times, be problematic. The drain tube, about six feet long, was wrapped with an electrical tape so as to preclude freeze up. When the tape failed the urinal would cease draining and overflow. A big problem with an almost 20 person crew.

And guess who's job it was to fix it? lol

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Hi Bob, you are correct on the 4 bladed props but again they appear to be on a B model which has had the tail number fiddled with. If you scale the tail numbers they are larger than the US AIR FORCE on the side. The tail numbers are clearer than the lettering on the side. This did not happen in real life. Also see the open GTC exhaust with the closed intake door? On the A models back when this picture was taken the loadmaster was still opening the intake and exhaust doors with camlocks. B model had no door over the exhaust outlet. Look down the picture to the left and you again see the supposed 0041. In this view you can see plainly that it is a B model GTC exhaust outlet as the B didn't have a door over the exhaust like the A.There is not enough detail to see how many drain masts there are on the engine. These are just my observations and I may be wrong but having an A model down the road and having looked at it a lot lately, I think I'm spot on, as our British buddies would say. Bill :)

Edited by Spectre623
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Here's my photo of 70483 from the rear. The serial does perhaps look strange, I agree. Not perhaps so much it's size but it's very 'thick and black' compared with other USAF C-130's that visited. So that's obviously the 6091st guys getting a bit ham-fisted when they put on the false number. I took a few of the WV-2 and so here's one with 50041's tail in the shot. The earlier pic of the 4-bladed props was on 70483 by the way.

David

www.focalplanes.co.uk

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Hello David, in this lower picture of 0041 if you inlarge it you can plainly see the safety valve outlet on the left side of the aft cargo door (the round black dot). This valve is in the center of the door on A models near the hinge point and in the left hand upper corner on B's,E's,H's.I don't mean any harm in picking the photo's apart...but it's been interesting as I was assigned to A and B models about the time these pictures were taken back in the early 60's. Also your albums are wonderful. Bill :)

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Hello David, in this lower picture of 0041 if you inlarge it you can plainly see the safety valve outlet on the left side of the aft cargo door (the round black dot). This valve is in the center of the door on A models near the hinge point and in the left hand upper corner on B's,E's,H's.I don't mean any harm in picking the photo's apart...but it's been interesting as I was assigned to A and B models about the time these pictures were taken back in the early 60's. Also your albums are wonderful. Bill :)

On the later A models the safety valve was moved from the center of the aft door to the left side.

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Bob, what do you mean by '556 B-11's'?

I don't really see why a unit would put false serials on planes back then. Obviously a C-130 didn't look like an electronic surveillance aircraft as it only had the extra large pods and no give away radomes or aerials. Giving it false serials, particularly from an earlier model of the aircraft doesn't seem necessary. The WV-2 however made no attempt at concealment. ...not that there was much that could be concealed on that!

David

www.focalplanes.co.uk

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556 Recon Squad RS flew B-II's out of Yokota Japan at that time.

They were the only ones with B-II's at that time.

The A-II's were at Rhein Main and had three bladed props. THe B-II's were all in the 556.

Since the configuration with the large outboard external tank was only on the A-II and B-II at that time and only the B-II had 4 bladed props at that time my guess is 556 RS. Only reason I can think of for false tail numbers at that time was Indonesia.

USAF used false tail numbers with its E Flight C-130A's and E's and also with its Heavy Chain aircraft. In this case all I can think of is that if the Indonesians shot at one of these aircraft the USAF could deny that it was any kind of a spy plane and just claim that it was a cargo A model.

Bob

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Bob,

Thanks for that info. After looking into this some more, I think you're correct in supposing that these aircraft were on missions near Indonesia, as Singapore would be the best place to do that from. A few months later a US Navy A3 Skywarrior photo recce version showed up at Singapore and flew a few missions and I was convinced that he was looking at Indonesia as well.

Us Brits did a bit of electronic surveillance at that time, firstly over Borneo in December '62 and a year later aiming at Indonesia. The aircraft was a Comet 2R of 51 Sqdn and flew Singapore to Darwin so as to position along the coast. The Comet's looked like standard RAF Transport Command aircraft, having all their aerials hidden in the skin of the aircraft (American equipment infact at that time). Alas that rendered them only partially pressurised....so damn cold inside at operating altitude.

Another question though; 70483 seen at Changi, doesn't carry the large underwing pods or even have pylons for them fitted. Would those electronics pods be easily demountable? Did the operators just sit in the cargo area or were B-11's heavily modified inside? Reading this website's listings I can see that some B-11's were re-instated as cargo carriers again later. Also the pods weren't 'ECM' then, so no 'jamming' just 'listening'?

Thanks again for the fascinating insight you guys have given me...you can learn so much from the internet, even 50 years on.

David

www.focalplanes.co.uk

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David, In the four years I was in the 7406th we never had a requirement to drop the "tank". They attached to the wing similar to the real tank and were removable if necessary. They were made of fiberglass. The air force went to great lengths to conceal what they really were. There was a fuel filler cap, boost pump access panels and operational fuel sump drains provided with a small reservoir for fuel such that if the drain were actuated fuel would actually drain. All nicely stenciled. When cross country would be questioned, "is that really a fuel tank?". Our response was, push the fuel drain. Surprise. Now, anyone with any knowledge of aircraft would know the wing would not support a 1500 gal. fuel tank at that wing station. We would tell them the acft. had a beefed up wing.

No explanation for 483. It would have been non-mission capable without the tanks. Perhaps their training [standard] bird. However, that doesn't explain the bogus tail number. BTW, as Bob stated earlier, it was not unusual for USAF C-130 units with classified missions to use bogus tail numbers. We did it, E flight at CCK did it, Heavy Chain did it, and evidently so did the 6091st. The purpose was to confuse the enemy and make them think there were more aircraft than there actually were.

Yes David, these acft were heavily modified. The cargo compartment consisted of hard bulkheads secured to the acft. Each operator had a dedicated position. The fuselage walls were covered with a light gray pebbled aluminum sheeting. In addition, there was added insulation and soundproofing throughout. Cushioned multi colored green vinyl type floor covering. As I remember, somewhat plush for a Herk.

The cargo compartment air conditioning system was highly modified. One could sit at FS 757 in a T shirt and converse in a normal tone while at cruise altitude, between 28 and 32,000 ft.

The paratroop doors were operational, the ramp and door was not.

No one, but no one, bought recording tape for their Akia. Your right, no ECM but a lot of listening.

Our aircraft were treated with a lot of tlc. While we most all the time took off at max gross weight there were no assault landings, max effort takeoffs, max. effort landings or any of that tactical stuff.

We flew most every month in excess of a hundred hours. Mission duration was eight hours forty minutes. Mission airspeed 150 kias with ten percent flaps. This, not surprisingly, beat up the flaps. At phase inspection our tin benders accomplished depot level maintenance with the flap still on the aircraft. I think we had, at the time, the best SSgt sheet metal guy in the air force.

Each engine had a 40 kva ac generator and an oversize oil tank. I think 12 gals. At cruise altitude total fuel flow was 2,000 pph.

The downside to all of this was the security. Very heavy handed. My wife became friends with a back end maintenance guys wife. And through them I became friends with him. One day my boss came to my aircraft to tell me the sqd. security officer wanted to see me. So I go to his office and he tells me in no uncertain terms I cannot be friends with my friend. As I'm leaving I said to myself, this is America, no one can tell my who my friends can be. So I paid him no heed. Shortly thereafter I had an audience with the commander. He was an easy going fatherly (rare qualities for a sqd. commander) Lt Col who told me why I couldn't have my friend. End of story.

As Bob D stated, when the mission ended, all Rivet Victor As' and Bs' were converted back to the tactical airlift mission and assigned to the Reserve Forces. I spoke to Bob about this conversion and he allowed his outfit had been assigned several of the Bs' and they had been almost completely configured to the tactical mission. In fact, I'm guessing he may have flown the acft. pictured in your website. He could confirm/deny that if we only knew what their real tail numbers were. lol

The Navy had a classified A-3D squadron posted to NAS Rota Spain. They flew missions from CDI Incerlik Turkey as we did and parked on the secure ramp with us. Their back end crew consisted of US Army operators.

There's more but my wife is calling me to bring in the groceries

BTY David, your website is one of the best aviation websites on the planet. Just "smashing".

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Larry speaks of tight security at Rhine Main for the 7406 Sqd.I made many trips into R/M and was parked behind their 130s.They were cordoned off with air police always patrolling.I seem to remember guard dogs as well.You just coulden't get near those birds.

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Larry, really fantastic details about the B-11's. Thanks for that.

Bob, I've been looking up details of the 556th Recon Sqdn since you told me about it and am I right in noting that it didn't get C-130B-11's until after these photos were taken, which was January 1963? Contemporary records also seem to show that the 6091st had the C-130A-11's not the B's as they were all with Larry's outfit, the 7406th at Rhein-Main.

However you've shown me that these are B models and my negatives show that the aircraft were in Singapore in 1963. I can only assume that B-11's filtered into the Far East at that time. Well at least one, as '70483' is presumably standard B model that's along as a backup aircraft, as it has doesn't have the large slipper tanks.

Are there similar comprehensive histories about C-130B-11's like Dutch gave me for the A-11's?

David

www.focalplanes.co.uk

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No one has mentioned it but besides the props, the best way to distinguish a C-130A from later models was that the C-130A had an extra fuselage window just forward of the red prop warning stripe. Your "C-130As" only have three. So you can easily tell that it is not an A model. The 6091st's support aircraft was 711, but in 1963, it might not have been assigned yet. I head that it was ex-463rd TAW and had been involved in a hard landing so it ended up with the 6091st. The 6091st had recently converted to C-130B-II from RB-50Gs, and I believe that early on, not all had the equipment (wing pods) installed, so '743' might be an as yet unmodified one and was being used as a support aircraft. Early photos in Japanese aviation magazines show a few w/o wing pods. Since the tail numbers at Yokota would have been easily ascertained, it would make sense for '743's' tail number to be replaced, too. Later in the late 60s or early 70s, C-130A-IIs were sent TDY to Asia and showed up at Yokota. Contemporary records (6091st starting with C-130A-IIs and are you saying that the 7046 started with C130B-IIs?) on the USAF, if they are British, are not always accurate, especially areas without a British presence. But they have recorded much useful information. The Americans, for various reasons, are much worse and have not recorded their history like this, and owe a debt of gratitude to the British for recording their history.

The official designation for the C-130A-IIs and C-130B-IIs used a roman numeral.

When the 6091st shut down their mission in the early 70s, the C-130B-IIs were sent to Europe to replace the C-130A-IIs and were themselves replaced with 3 C-130Es in the mid 70s.

Best wishes,

Grant

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Grant, I learned something from you today. Did not know that As had four portholes forward of the prop warning line and Bs and on had but three. This proves you're never to old to learn

C-130A II acft. began arriving in USAFE about mid year 1958. The C-130B II acft. began delivering to the 556 RS in 1961.

As fighting intensified in RVN the 556 tasking became very heavy. As a result, starting in about mid 1966 the 7406th repeatedly sent an acft. TDY to PACAF. The 556th, for the most part, flew the longer missions into SEA while the A II flew the closer in missions. In addition, the 7406th repeatedly flew from McDill AFB.

Without tanks the acft. would be non-mission capable. That's because the tanks contained almost all of the sensors. The operators in back would be receiving nothing.

When the B IIs were withdrawn from Europe their mission was assumed by the 55th SRW with RC-135 Rivet Joint acft.

The three Es, 62-1819, 1822 and 1829 took over the 7405th SS C-97G mission. While these acft., from the exterior, looked standard, they in fact where highly modified with the latest sensors. This was a photo recce. mission flown daily in the Berlin corridor. Thus the Berlin for Lunch Bunch moniker.

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Thanks, Larry, I didn't know that they replaced the EC-97Gs. I'm also never too old to learn. The EC-97Gs also came TDY to PACAF during the 60s. I think that the earliest was Brave Bull.

The very early C-130As, pre 57 year models, I think, also had a set of three windows on each side of the upper fuselage. Two before the wings and one after the wing.

Not easy to see but the two small dots on the top fuselage are the forward upper windows. They were painted over or replaced by metal skins, but you could still see them from the inside.

C130A.jpg

Or scroll down to the C-130A in natural metal with red conspicuity markings.

http://www.plaaf.net/U-S-Air-Force/Transport/201202/3368.html

There was another above the cockpit next to the nav hatch.

c130a-2.jpg

Best wishes,

Grant

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Ah, yes Grant, another tidbit I had forgotten. Recall our training/parts hauler bird, 54-1367 had those upper portholes. The transparencies had been replaced by a sheet metal plug. As you stated, at some point later in production those upper portholes were deleted. Our mission acft., which were all 56 model year birds did not have them. I'm guessing they were deleted with production of the first 55 year acft.

At some point during my tour in the 7406th we had 58-711 for some months. What a sweet airplane compared the our A IIs. It lacked the hard compartment bulkheads. Instead the cargo compartment, while open, was filled with equipment. Prototype stuff undergoing field test is my guess. What I remember most about the acft. was the cargo compartment lighting. There was not a shadow anywhere. If led lighting existed that far back 711 had it. There is a long distance poor quality photo in the gallery supposedly of 711, however, the tail number is unreadable.

At one point, after I had rotated, the 06th had a classified C-7 assigned. This happened as a result of the US Army being required the transfer all C-7s to the USAF. This acft. was flown and maintained by Army folks. The enlisted troops lived in the 06th barracks. They fit in well and were accepted both off and on duty. The officers not so much.

Unless one was involved, one had no idea how much classified flying was going on around the world. On the highly secure ramp at Incerlik, at any one time there would be three or four C-130s, two of three RB/ERB-47s and several Navy A-3Ds.

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