tenten

The things make this site “irresistible†is the lovely jokes spread in between from time to time, smoothen the ugly precise technical information. By the way brother battleherk, Give my best regard to “sir.casmâ€; he also used to be my father-in-law during my high school study till I had been kicked out. One more thing if you don’t mind, till him I missed him, and it is not me who asked mother to divorce him..¡

Quoting: I asked if throttle alignment looked good, the FE looked over and said "yeah man it's lined up." Quoting: Pushed them up to 900, noticed that the #4 throttle WAS out of alignment, by approximately 1 knob high, … So the issue is: Flying crew misleading maintenance crew, and the issue is not as the title/defect raised; Low TIT, High Torque, High Fuel Flow at same throttle position, but actually the reading was given at 1 knob high of #4 throttle (as been caught during the run-up by brother ddhix) . So, pulling the one knob back will certainly correct the fuel and torque issues and you will be left with “Low TIT Indication”. Main point: Do we have to believe them on any write-up or we should do our full engine-run before starting to hook-up any boxes or do any adjustment?

Low TIT, High Torque, High Fuel Flow Is a subject well explained in “SERVICE NEWS†vol.18 no.4 and vol.9 no.3

A little slam (tubeless only) = Smack the starter (any) with the bumper jack. Master of Equilibrium..!!

1-What do you mean by PCU…?; If you mean the pressure cut-out switch located in the pump housing; That switch is a part of the feathering circuit but definitely not involved in the unfeathering circuit (air start circuit). If it malfunctions, the prop will not go to full feather during the shut-down which is not the case. 2-Secondly what do you mean by: redo the beta cal…? 3-Finally, what do you mean by sarcasm...?!

Yes brother, Might be intermittent, but the airplane now on stable condition after changing the TD valve and adjusting the TD amp, so, wise not “finger print†that cable.

ddhix, Thanks for the feedback and for the steps and tips you gave. But the enquiry from my side that I was looking for an answer to it is a bit different. Defect issue definitely is not a HOT start in Auto/Null or in both. Defect issue was: 1- COLD START (700°C) ACCOMPANIED WITH VERY SLOW ACCELERATION.(TD AUTO). 2- IN “NULL†OPERATION WAS PERFECT. Engine defect repeated many times during the starts, hot or cooled, head or tail, and the slow acceleration was confirming the actuality of the low TIT indication….. 1- Out of using the TD TESTER; is there any steps/tips to spot the defective component of this specified defect? 2- Is there any possibility that the culprit of this specified defect can be the TD valve? If the answer for the last is “YES†I request technical justification from the expert brothers.

Based on C-130H 24volts lead acid battery rated at 36 amp/hr. We have been learned that during flight if all AC generators lost and the battery is the only source of power aircraft will be left with two electrical buses only (BAT BUS & ISOLATED BUS) in which the battery bus will provide us with the ability to extinguish any fire on the engines and the ISOLATED BUS will provide us mainly with the following: 1- 3 crew interphone (P, FE, LM) 2- Radio com. (VHF1 & UHF1) 2- The ability to operate one inverter only (co-pilot inv.) flight directors No1 & No2 (ADI) The time required for the Battery to reach the discharged state depends mainly on the use of the above, so theoretically if the total draw is 36 amps. The battery will be discharged within one hour, and with 72 amps the battery will be discharged within approximately halve an hour. In such situation reducing the load to the minimum is essential to maximize the time by switching off/pulling CB any unnecessary items (Co-pilot inv.) if not required at the time. The estimated time to use the battery in this situation without reducing the load is 15 to 20 minutes. Point to be known that when battery voltage drops to (15 to 18 volt) the isolated bus will be lost (battery relay will deenergized); air craft will be left with 15 volt battery bus.

Trev, Have you checked Fuel Heater and Strainer for evidence of mixing oil with fuel?

Hey Tiny, We never advise such…….. to your fragile avionic boxes.

As brothers mentioned that a “Compressor Tight Engine†is one possible cause of the defect. (engine failed to rotate during air start). The question for brothers having experience on “Tight Engines†is; such engine; dose it show some indications during ground check? Such as: 1- Repeated failure to rotate during start, when still hot. 2- Repeated starter failure. 3- Above 100% efficiency. 6- Visual evidence of “Rubbing†on the compressor blades tips (fifth & tenth stages compressor check). 7- Rubbing noise during “hand rotation†when engine still hot; etc… For the sake of knowledge, comments will be appreciated.

Quoting: (FM 382C-14E) section 3 If normal air start cannot be accomplished because of failure of the propeller to rotate, and blade angle change can be observed and is indicated by illumination of FEATHER VALVE AND NTS light, an air start may be attempted by placing the ENGINE BLEED AIR switch to OVRD and using the engine starter to help unlock the propeller brake. 1- To my understanding-and might be wrong-, that a “TINY BIT” change from 92.5 is not sufficient to blame the propeller brake, the brake to be released from a locked position required sufficient change of blade angle (to put the prop on the ram air force), beside it should be accompanied with illumination of NTS light, which is not stated and not the case of the defect. 2- Based on a couple of experience happened to me with propeller brake that failed to unlock during air start , the prop blade angle was clearly out of feather and never went back to feather. But reaction might differ from system to system and I might be wrong.

The indication of coming out a pit/tiny from feathered position, indicates a good initial unfeathering electrical circuits as well as hydraulic pressure and routing. 1-Why not the prop continuing the unfeathering cycle? To me we should not track this issue; "Why not the prop continuing the unfeathering?" Based on: Quoting: angryjohnny The blades begin to come out of fleather just a tiny bit then go back to feather. So: the dome quad seals leakage, and the Aux. Feather Pump weakness, etc.. are not our issue. Our issue is: 2-Why the prop return back to feather and maybe up to the feather latch lock? Which indicates, another feathering circuit is become active (electrical/mechanical) causing the "feather valve" to be opened. A- Is it electrical feathering circuit malfunction? might be, but, some malfunctions can be seen by the (pulling-In) of the feather override button during the malfunction, which is not mentioned in your post. And some possibility of malfunctions is located in the valve housing, which already had been changed. So what is left? B- Mechanical feathering malfunction (NTS). The most likely As mentioned by: pjvr99 Quoting: Check out NTS function on the RGB. Note: Good NTS operation during air start should act momentarily (pushing the feather valve to open) at initial rotation of the prop but not before and not continued. If NTS malfunction (over-act, sticky) it will keep holding the feather valve opened thus routing hydraulic fluid towards feathering. So keep tracking the NTS malfunction.

I mean the operator Part No 6798233. "Let off " Plaprad,..... I couldn’t resist. Thanks to ALL for the help. Anyhow, “Tragedy†started as follow: Defect was raised on the “Form†With TD Auto: Climb TP: 12,000 13,000 12,700 12,500 TIT: 1,000 1,000 1,000 1,000 FF: 1,300 1,500 1,350 1,350 Cruise TP:12,000 13,000 12,700 12,500 TIT: 970 945 970 970 FF: 1,200 1,200 1,200 1,200 With throttle No.2 “one knob†back than others. Which mean to me, that the defect we should track is on the TIT indication system, (thermocouples, T-block, harness, etc.) nothing else. But.., anyhow “team1†received the A/C (no records if they “finger†anything before deciding to use the “TD Test set†Part No.20-6798233 During the TD Amplifier Test Procedures, indication revealed to them was:"failure of TD valve". “TD Valve1†replaced. After replacement, engine started (auto); max start TIT was 700°C with very slow acceleration and with RPM stagnation… NULL start was good TIT 800°C with good acceleration to ON SPEED. New TD AMP replaced; defect of low TIT during Auto start remained as it was. TD AMP swapped with a known good one, defect remained. “TD Test Set†connected by “team2†History repeated, TD Valve also failed to pass. “TD Valve2†replacedâ€, TD AMP adjusted. Defect cleared. Today a recheck was done to verify the TEST SET operation by connecting the Test Set to a known good engine, all steps of the test passed. Whereas when the Two TD Valves "previously removed†connected to the same engine, they re-failed to pass the TEST. As I have “NO Experience†of using the Test Set, I cannot confirm the issue concerning the accurate steps that had been taken by our “Test Set Operators†during the test. But the Steps that had been failed are related to: 1-TD Valve Take To Null Time. 2-TD Valve Put To Null Time. Main Point of the issue is; my understanding of how system works is disturbed besides losing two costly components. My understanding that during NULL operation there is no any signal imposed on the TD valve (pure mechanical orifice setting 20% bypass) meanwhile with AUTO selected, during the starting phase the mechanical orifice setting will remain fixed unless singled/actuated by the AMP. The only possibility that might explained that defect is: if the TD valve once TD switch selected to AUTO it becomes in ARM STATE and due to valve motor failure it starts moving to “TAKE†position. Which neither I read it nor experienced it before. Note: Engine T56-A-15 / TD AMP part No. 5502636-2/5502636-4

Quotingâ€s†: NATOPS1: The TD Valve is not your issue… Tusker: I would consider the TD Amp… Lkuest: Seen the TD AMP do it many times… Herc308: Sounds to me that your start pot in the amp is u/s. No doubt; So, I will keep the “Two TD Valves†attacked by my brothers during this weekend-by the help of the TD tester-as a “Semi serviceable Items†especially when the last one changed was accompanied by “minor†adjustment of TD Amp. Which make the bird to fly. Note: my next move is to test the “TESTERâ€.:confused: Thanks to all for the inputs.

With TD NULL, the engine having a good start TIT(800°C) and a good acceleration, whereas during Auto start the engine start TIT Struggling to reach the 700°C with a very slow acceleration. Is there any possibility that the malfunction is related to a defective TD valve? If so, is there any technical clarification to this point?

Quoting: “NOTE†Retarding the throttles below FLIGHT IDLE at air speed above approximately 115 KIAS could result in power-loss/bog-down on one or more engines, particularly when operating in high ambient temperature condition. … (Ref. TO 1C-130H-1) sec2 page79 Quoting: (HOT WEATHER PROCEDURES) (LANDING) “CAUATION†Rapid movement of throttles in the reverse range can cause unscheduled engine rundown/RPM decay. (Ref. FM 382C-14E) sec2 page 92 Long time, during simulator training (hot weather) if reverse above 90 KIAS the four engine will bog-down. I do not know if the 90 comes through reference or it is just the setting of the simulator.

RRR, Thanks a lot, all clear, and indeed it helps. Having military airplanes under “Foreign Direct Sale” (Lockheed). Have a good day.

God save the crew, if that “AC†went a step farther towards F-22.:)

Now; no doubt to me that a “momentarily†loss of “Ess.AC Bus†is the cause of what you have seen. Yes brother xf14; As you mentioned the normal shifting system of generators to take over the buses (generator contactors) during normal -no fault on them- should not cause the loss of bus to a point effecting the component/system working on it.(yes, in some cases you might see momentarily flickering of bus off light during shifting, but no more) Based on the normal power rooting during flight:- No 2 gen-K53B-K53F-K53E- to the Ess. Ac bus.The following possibilities might be the cause of such defect: A-Power source malfunction:- 1- No 2 gen. malfunction. As mentioned by NATOPS1: Quoting: If the Generator is make voltage above 70 or 95 (depending on what system you have installed) you may not have any indication of a malfunction. And that is the critical condition in which the low generator output (voltage) cross the barrier of protection and warning indications, and the result is misbehaving not only with indicators but with systems (synchrophaser, autopilot , TD, etc) . But this can be isolated by switching off no2 gen. by the FE (if not sent back by the AC) Which is the first action to be taken in the case of partial loss occur or suspected of Ess Ac Bus.(ref. dash1 sec.3) Quoting: Service news vol.16 no4 A four-engine power fluctuation or rollback occurs when rpm and torque fluctuate in response to a failure in the aircraft electrical power system or synchrophaser system. Such a power fluctuation is usually a transient phenomenon lasting only a second or two, but the fact that the engines are responding to an uncommanded input can have an unsettling effect on the aircraft crew….. B- Contactors control malfunction:- 1- Possibility of cycling of one of the gen. contactor (K53B) due to fault cycling signal imposed on it from GCP. (Internal malfunction of GCP, GCP tray holding mechanism not firmly in good contact, wiring loss on the tray receptacle of the GCP), the point of cycling might explain why not No1 generator takeover the Ess Bus and no warning light came in view within that short time of the fault. 2- The possibility of cycling the APU contactor K53E (K10) is there, but.. “Who Wag The Dog†?? Finally; I believe, that the defect as you mentioned related to looseness of the GCP and you will not see it again if GCP is in good contact with receptacle. Quoting: xf14 Will pulling the Isolated 28VDC to the GCP cause the generator to be down when all 4 engines are running? No, for my knowledge they are only for resetting the excitation field of the generators if lost. Last point: No issue of AC inverter for my knowledge to this defect.

Brother, xf14 1- “ALL†means “ALLâ€. Are you sure that “ALL†the 32 indicators of the 4 engines (wind down) ?? (RPM, TORQUE, TIT, FUEL FLOW, OIL PRESURES,… etc). Or some of them. And are you sure that “ALL†flight instrument (OFF flag in view)? (ALTIMETERS, VVI, AIR SPEED INDICATORS,…etc). Or some of them. 2- (Wind down) does it mean, all the indicators dropped towards zero reading or….? 3- Is the defect appears only during the banking/turns? 4- Is there any other indications (such as blinking of any “Bus OFF†or GEN.OUT lights) during the malfunction? 5- Finally, is there any flight engineer on the seat ??! to deal with this according to flight manual sec.3…. (Switching OFF no. 2 generator to help in isolating the defect) since it is repeated/happened again and again. More information will make things easy for others to help you.

Only who don’t believe that one member can fly the plane should read this…: A serviceable C-130 parked on a strip at a remote Caribbean island, flying crew was not expected to have any mission, so and to enjoy a “Caribbean night activity†all the crew- except the pilot-were involved in taking local tuff drink in which they reached a point of not recognizing head from foot….(off topic:- That is why military stuff ordered to wear head caps,.. just to help in such cases…) Early morning broadcast declared hurricane will sweep off the island within 6 hrs, captain try to wake-up his crew he failed, so and by the help of local he managed to take them as a “loadâ€. 5 crew including LM were strapped on the cargo floor with 10,000 lb chains. (off topic:- Captain extra measure of safety) 4hrs left, sky getting dark, local people start gathering asking to go, captain started the APU switched on HF box calling “OPS†requesting permission to evacuate the island with maximum pax. And asking permission to fly the plane alone, halve an hour later answer from GHQ was; for passengers “visa†is must, regarding flying the plane alone, idiXXXXXXXt…son of xx xbook limit….. HF switched Off, captain ask all to get inside, chocks removed, doors closed, all overhead ungraded switches “forwardâ€/“on lineâ€, hydraulic panel set, parking brake set, engines on speed, taxing, take off, climb, and cruise. Level 210, captain turned to the right seat talking to a native old women with 3 months baby on her chest: “Never flown smooth and quite mission such this; keep them tied on the chains". Closer to home border he switched on radio and starts giving standard call. Brothers this is a “novelâ€; where is the harm to fly it alone???!! Note: All rights reserved regardless of spelling, grammar, and structure mistakes.:)

Hey, Tiny. Still as usual “greatâ€â€¦To be an avionic guy and to do your best on giving help. Maybe if I post my case in “Greek†prop guys will respond. Bischoffm, thanks a lot. Private message received-replied to your message submitted twice-confirm receiving-system or "me" at fault. :confused:

Book stated minimum crew for C-130H is THREE (pilot, co-pilot, and engineer) Theoretically, One pilot-having the knowledge of flight engineer- is sufficient to fly the airplane.

Tiny, indeed I appreciate your help, and thanks for all book references. And to make things more clear maybe I have to say it this way; A week ago one side of the “Snap Ring Bracket†of the Hub Mounting Bulkhead is broken duo to over-torque, we managed to remove the front spinner by the puller, for the next step we were having two decisions/options:- 1- The first option is to change the whole prop assembly, based on the idea that “the effected item†is one part of a balanced prop and it cannot be changed alone without having the authority, and the balancing tools/equipments; (which we don’t have). 2- The second option (the creative), they believe that the effected item can be replaced alone based on the following:- a- The authority is TM 382C-2-10 (sec 1 Page 2) stated that.. Quoting:- Note The hub mounting bulkhead and de-icer contact range holder assemblies are no longer considered part of the propeller assembly. Each is now an end item for supply purposes. This manual will continue to cover these items as part of the propeller assembly for practical reasons. b- The effected item is available(!!!) in our spare part under Part No. 554636, while the balancing issue (which we don’t have the tools to do it) can be solved by replacing the balancing weights from the defective to the new at the same locations!? Anyhow the more safe option was selected; job C/Out, aircraft on the air. Maybe the point I should mention that “we†as a second line our authority is limited only to assemble a balanced propeller in addition to removal, installation..etc. By the way “the third line maintenance†in my universe is 3,000 km northwest of the second line.:confused: Tiny, apologize been not clear on my post, blame it on the lack of experience and language. tenten