SamMcGowan

One other thing - when we on the flare mission we wore 'chutes all the time because of hostile fire. Then a guy who had been in MATS suggested we look into the harness with chest packs and they got a bunch for the loadmasters to wear. (They had used the harnesses on C-124s.) We wore the harness and stashed the bag closeby where we knew where it was. They were designed so that the clips on the back dropped right into a snap-ring. Nobody ever bailed out of a flareship. Except for two that were shot-down with no survivors, all of the birds that were shot up made it to a landing somewhere.

Actually, when something is under tension, you can cut it with a butter knife. I cut away a bunch of extraction 'chutes one week when our crew was at the A&E Board and every time we went up we had a platform hang up. (We were testing wooden platforms with modular rails and the platforms would bow up and hang.) I had already been told that all you had to do was touch it and it would go. Can't remember for sure, but I'm pretty sure I used the orange survival knife to make the cuts.

The drops at Pope were from around 800' AGL, which is plenty of altitude for a parachute to open. Crews always wore parachutes on formation and tactical missions. The only mission we wore restraint straps on were PLADS, which were flown at about 400' as I recall. We wore parachutes on LAPES. The reason we used straps - which were actually 5,000-pound tie-down straps hooked to the parachute and to a D-ring, was because we were back on the open ramp making the drops. The bundle was pushed to the end of the famp and hanging over with a piece of webbing holding it in and the loadmaster cut the webbing to let it go.

There was one I/O who bailed out of an A-model that was shot down over Laos. Not certain, but I think he was the only one who ever got out of one. He was an experienced sky-diver.

By the way, the C-7 Caribou used flight engineers and no loadmaster. Sam

I was at the school house when the AF had the C-7s dumped on them. The AF looked at the current classes of FM and those with recip expererence were reassigned to the C7. There were some unhappy guys at Sewart.

A lot of Caribou engineers came out of MAC. A friend of mine, Frank Godek, lives down the road from me aways on Galveston Bay. I flew with Frank in C-141s at Robins. He went to Vietnam on C-7s and got his name in the history books. He's been having some health issues lately - guess I need to go see him.

The Four-Line Cut was something we were taught in survival school for use with the Air Force parachutes. There were four lines at the back of the riser that were marked with tape, and the survivor was supposed to reach back and cut them with the survival knife. Once the lines were cut, the chute was supposed to be easier to steer. I don't remember anything about any line being pulled to make the cuts. The survival films showed the survivor reaching up over his head and identfying the lines by the orange tape and then cutting them with the hooked blade on the knife. (By the way, I've still got mine. I gave it to my dad and got it back after he passed away. I don't think they were controlled. We were issued one with our initial issue of flight gear. )

It was said the VC put a bounty on the Blind Bats when they first started useing the Herk.

First time I've heard that. They weren't Blind Bats when they were at Da Nang either. That name didn't come along until the mission moved to Ubon. I flew Blind Bat and COMMANDO VAULT and I'll take the bombing over dropping flares any day of the week. At least we were accomplishing something with them.

Everything old is new again!

YEP! Way back in early 1942 when 21st and 22nd Transport Squadrons started dropping to the Aussies on the Kokoda Track in New Guinea, they were making high velocity drops without parachutes. And there weren't no such thing as SOF back then either - it was called COMBAT! The USAF likes to keep reinventing the wheel and claiming they've come up with something new.

JimH,

It was Tuy Hoa. Personal experience. I was crew chief flying with my acft, 55-0040 and I don't remember any of the crew's names. The AC took a voice vote for us all - asking if we wanted to risk the landing, etc. There was no lights on base, base was under fire and a damaged C-130 was just off the side of the runway. When they on the ground heard our Acft, they turned the Anti collision light on. Just above touchdown, the AC would turn out landing lights on, (we were blacked out also). It was the third try before we were lined up with the runway. One experience I will never forget. FYI as a crew chief, I was not on flight orders so I got no medal. Guess no one could add me after the fact, anyway the crew received the AF Cross, i believe if memory serves me correctly.

HighTide

Cecil Wayne Wright

No Naha crew and no A-model crew was ever awarded the Air Force Cross. Shortly after we started operating out of Cam Ranh, the Air Force established a major base at Tuy Hoa complete with a hard-surface runway and a wing of F-100s. Tuy Hoa was on the coast and was hardly a forward area. ARRS had HC-130s there and for a time in '68 there was a C-130 operating location there. A couple of HC-130s were knocked out there by rockets during Tet '68. Before the new base opened we used the short runway that had been built by the French or Japanese. John Butterfield ran off the end of it when one of his props hung up on the low-pitch stop. That was the one that was towed with tanks and chains, but it was by Army troops, not Marines. Binh Tuy was down in the Delta and was an around the clock base with a lighted runway. We went in and out of there at night all the time. They had a couple of squadrons of A-1s there.

Sam, could you post the "Tennessee Loadmaster" article that you wrote many years ago about our friend Charlie Schaub. There are a lot of new folks here who could be inspired by that great hero's story.

Thanks

Muff

Muff, I somehow missed your post. The story is at www.sammcgowan.com/shaub.html.

By the way, I'm not sure if it is working out or not, but a few months ago I was working with the Wings Over Houston air show people and the folks at Little Rock to have that airplane brought to Houston for this years event - October 23-24. Attendees at the TCTAA convention are planning to go up to see the show on Saturday.

Evidently they featured me once. I got an Email that they were going too but I never went to the site to find out if they did or not.

I am a TAC-trained killer from way back, but I spent about half of my USAF 12-year career in MAC, a year in C-141s at Robins and five years at Charleston and Dover in C-5s. Personally, as far as I'm concerned, MAC SUCKS, and I MEAN SUCKS! As the old song the C-119 troop carrier guys used to sing, "I'd rather have a sister in a whore house than a brother in MATS (MAC)." I have never seen so many crybabies in one place in my life! Right after I got to Naha I went to Da Nang on a Fact Sheet and we were put in tents and given sheets. One of the other loadmasters had just come out of MATS and kept harping "MATS would never allow this!" Finally one of the other loadmasters told him to shut the hell up, that he was in the Air Force now! I used go into Cam Ranh Bay in C-141s and listen to the flight engineers, most of whom had never served overseas, talk about how they were "in combat." What a crock of BS! Sure, MAC crews got per diem and had their own quarters, but they were lacking in something. After I went to Charleston I had an additional duty in awards and decs. USAF had gone to the WAPS system and I had all of these E-6s and E-7s wanting me to put them in for Commendation Medals so they could have a decoration on their records. They were putting up signs on MAC bases that said "Our mission is to fly and fight - and don't you forget it!" You never needed that in TAC and PACAF.

I got a private message asking about JFK's casket, and a rumor that he was buried at sea. As I understand it, the casket that his body was flown from Dallas to Andrews in was, in fact, dropped into the Atlantic from a C-130B from Langley. However, he was buried at Arlington in another casket that Jackie picked out.

If I'm not mistaken, the crew was from Langley where the 463rd had recently moved from Sewart.

They were mortared on their way out of Quan Loi in ~Nov '69. The loadmaster Norm Thomas was killed (346th crew). They had just picked up an A model crew that had broke down. Norm and the A model loadmaster were standing in between the paratroop doors tieing down the chocks when Norm was hit with a piece of the mortar round. He had a daughter that wasn't a year old at the time.

That airplane was caught in another rocket attack at Kontum in 1972 and this time it didn't survive. In fact, it was the last C-130 lost to ground attack during the American role in Vietnam. (Yeah, I know, an airplane was lost at Saigon at the end of the war but the US had long since pulled all military units out of the country.) I saw a picture one time that identifed a C-130 as the Quan Loi Queen and claimed it was with E Flight. But if it was, it had been repainted in camouflaged by the time it was lost. I do have some pictures of it after it was flown out of Quan Loi and before it had been repainted. Al Steed, who was the senior loadmaster in the 346th, told me that it had been identified to go to the USAFM as the most heavily damaged airplane to ever be returned to service.

They were still called flight mechanics while I was at Naha in 66-67 and they carried either the A431X1F AFSC or the Jet engine mechanic AFSC. USAF changed the AFSC and gave the C-130 flight mechanics the flight engineer AFSC that had previously only been awarded to flight engineers on airplanes with a panel. The whole deal goes back to World War II when aerial engineers flew on B-17s, B-24s/C-87s/C-109s and C-54s and crew chiefs flew on C-46s and C-47s. At some point they started calling the flying crew chiefs flight mechanics. Bill Hatfield, who is one of the original C-130 pilots, tells me that for the first two or three years of C-130 operations the flight mechanic and the crew chief were one and the same. They flew with their airplanes and then worked on the flightline when they weren't flying. Sometime around 1959-60 they relieved them of flight line responsibilities. There weren't any loadmasters on crews either. A member of the ground crew flew as a scanner. Scanners were still flying on troop carrier crews into the sixties. There was no AFSC school for C-130 flight mechanics; they already had the maintenance AFSC so they went to Sewart for the C-130 familarization course. They were sometimes called "engineers" but on the orders they were designated as F/M's. I believe the AFSC change came about in 1967 just before I left Naha. It had something to do with assignments, but they still had to go to performance engineer school to be assigned to C-141s or C-5s.

By the way, the C-7 Caribou used flight engineers and no loadmaster. They had no panel and their duties were loading and offloading cargo and rigging airdrops.

The unit was the 61st TCS not the 62nd TCS. I Went to Murfreesboro, Tn back in 2003 and met with one of the other load masters on the mission "Carolina Moon" Mr. Aubrey Turner. I sat down with him and his wife for about an hour and a half, real nice people. Anyhow, Mr. Turner said this mission was so secret that not even the Air Force Commander at Danang knew it was taking place.

The two aircraft just dropped out of sky and parked at the opposite end of the airfield which upset a few I'm told. After the tower sent several officers down to the aircraft the confusion was put to rest. On the night of the first mission, the first C-130 took so many rounds that it almost did not make it back to Danang. The entire aircraft was in in black-out mode and all lights shut down due to light discipline procedures. The first aircraft did take a beating and from what I was told in 2003, these men where scared as hell during and directly after the initial drop of the so called "pancake mines". Obviously they made it back, had a beer, and tried to go to sleep later on that night. I believe some of the crew slept on the plane and some of the crew did not.

The next day obviously the Thanh Hoa Bridge was still standing. The second C-130, with my father Elroy Harworth on board left Danang on May 31, 1966, and never returned. Elroy Harworth was MIA until 1986, me and my brother went to Hawaii to escort his remains back to Minnesota. He is now buried in Fergus Falls, MN.

You would think that this is all to the story but it's not. I received a phone call about a year and half ago from a gentleman who claimed he had worked for the CIA during the Vietnam war. He basically claimed that the C-130 crash site was still being excavated and body parts where still being removed. Another "tid-bit" of information that shocked the hell out of me was the fact that the "pancake mines" where not mines at all. Then what where they?? If anyone out there can answer this please call me at (715) 629-7086.

I wrote the CIA / Air Force / and even the Socialist Government of Vietnam trying to get answers. Over 35 letters went out to ALL US Government agencies and foreign government agencies involved. I received a phone call from a gentleman who knew information but would not relay it to me, especially in writing.

So what's the big deal? You tell me. Sounds like there is more to this story than what is being told. Given the fact that one person was cut from his parachute right after the crash and later buried with the other crew members was never reported by the Air Force to me or my family. In the end we have a lot of questions that are still 43 years later unanswered.

Where tactical nuclear weapons used? Did some crew members live or parachute out? Why are they still digging at the crash site? Why is everyone still hush-hush? Several eye witness reports from people living in the actual village where the C-130 crashed are on record claiming one man had a parachute on and was hanging from a tree. Who was that man?

When I wrote the Air force Armament Museum in Fla and the Air Force Historical Office, they had never heard of a "MASS FOCUS PANCAKE MINE"

Doesn't that seem a little odd?

I'm here 24/7

Troy Harworth

(715) 629-7086/977-1899

Look up Stoney Beach and REFNO-350

They weren't mines, they were specially designed weapons that focused the full force of the explosion in one direction. I seriously doubt that anyone would have bailed out because they were dropping at very low level. I don't know if Aubrey told you or not, but the two crews had discussed whether or not to even wear them since they were going to be so low and their flak vests wouldn't fit over the parachute.

Here is an article that was posted in the AFA news.....

Brings back a lot of memories....good to see that the old bird is still flying...

Muff

Khe Sanh Veteran Back in Combat: The 746th Expeditionary Airlift Squadron, which has been supporting operations in Southwest Asia since February, recently added one more C-130 to its ranks: a 45-year-old C-130E known as Patches that arrived from Pope AFB, N.C. The aircraft, tail no. 62-1817, has a famous past that goes back to the 77-day battle of Khe Sanh in early 1968 during the Vietnam War. With overland supply of the embattled Marines impossible, Patches and her crew braved enemy fire to land and deliver much-needed supplies to the besieged outpost Feb. 5, 1968. The aircraft sustained substantial damage upon landing and taking off, but finished the mission. Pilot Lt. Col. Howard Dallman received the Air Force Cross for his efforts in leading the flight; all crew members received the Silver Star. \"I\'m proud to have her on our ramp,\" said Lt. Col. Daniel Tulley, 746th EAS commander, from Little Rock AFB, Ark. \"It gives our crewmembers and maintainers a sense of pride to know that one of their aircraft has been through something that significant.\" (USAF report by SrA. Tong Duong)

I thought this airplane was lost in an accident in Idaho. A few years ago someone from the USAFM contacted me because they were trying to find a "heroic Herk" for the museum. Nearly all of them had been lost. Col. Dallman died a few years ago. The USAFM is supposed to be getting the one that Bill Caldwell flew over An Loc and got shot up. He and Charlie Shaub got the Air Force Cross. Jon Sanders, the engineer, was KIA.

My note say this is at Khe Sahn, is that right? What tail number is it?

This photo is undoubtedly from the film footage that was taken after the crash. It was the only Marine C-130 lost in Vietnam in combat. Another was lost in a midair with a fighter during a refueling mission over or close to North Vietnam. This footage was shown over and over on the 6 O'Clock news during the siege.

I LOST MY BUDDY,SGT.ALAN MARTIN C/C,AC.#UNNOWN (I FORGET),C-130E DOWN APPROCH END. WX.=PILOT ORDERED TO DIVERT TO KADENA, A/C ORBITED FIELD 1-HOURE , FUEL STARVATION ON APPROCH, CAME IN RIGHT OF RUN WAY APROUCH. WING CAME IN CONT.RT.TIPE=SHERED WING, A/C THEN FLIPED ON BACK,CAME TO REAST BOTTEM'S UP.BURNING MOSTLY INTEREOR.12 R&R TROOPS DOA.+ CREW TWO WERE TAKEN OUT PUT IN HOSP.MEDIVACED TO JAPAN, DIED IN ROUTE. A-MEN GOD REAST THER SOUL'S.

ALLEN KC8QZQ LATE FEB.1969 OR EARLY MARCH 1969

This particular airplane was coming back from Cam Ranh Bay. Major Warren "Huey" Long was one of the pilots on board. Huey was an icon in the C-130 world. He was a Stan/Eval pilot at Pope and flew the lead airplane on DRAGON ROUGE. He went to Langley as initial cadre when the 316th TCW was started up after the 463rd went to Clark. He was coming out of country to go on emergency leave after learning that his wife was having surgery. His daughter Cindy is anxious to learn more about her dad. Her Email is [email protected]. I've got some pictures of the wreckage that Stan Davis took and sent to me to copy.

Somewhere on the site we have a list of aircraft losses and aircrew losses in SEA and a list of all known US crew member losses.

But on 56-0477

Col William Mason

LC Jerry Chambers

Maj William McPhail

Maj Thomas Mitchell

CMS Calvin Glover

CMS Thomas Knebel

CMS Melvin Rash

SMS John Adam

SMS Gary Pate

All were promoted while missing. Tom Mitchell\'s son has been on the site.

Ralph Krach may have more info.

Bob

This is the crew whose remains were interred at Arlington a few weeks ago. If I'm not mistaken, Calvin Glover and one other, maybe Melvin Rash, were the only ones whose remains were postively identified. I know that Glover was burial was seperate and I think Rash was too. The others were all buried in a common casket. Former Blind Bat pilot Roy Spencer was there, as was one other BB pilot who had been friends with Tom Mitchell. No one knows why Thomas Knebel was on the airplane. There were three loadmasters on the airplane. He was not a crew chief. Several years ago when the Vietnam data base was still available, I looked him up and found that his AFSC was Aircraft Instrument Repairman so he may have been onboard to work on the NOD. Knebel and the AC were both Arkansas natives and may have had some kind of connection and he had been invited along for the ride. One of the officers was actually a FAC navigator who had been assigned to the O-2 outfit at Ubon and was along on an orientation flight.

I'll tell you someone else who was a character, but not because he was a partyer, and that is Chick Anderson. I was crewed with him for about a year in F Troop. The crew chiefs hated to see him coming because if there was a discrepancy on their airplane, Chick would find it. One guy got so mad at him one day that he picked up his flight bag and threw it off of the airplane! I think his number one role was keeping Seaboldt out of trouble.

I didn't realize it until I found an old slide, but back in the early 70s the Blue Angels C-130 wasn't blue, it was white! I was at Albany NAS, GA on a C-5 static display in early 1973 and took several slides. One shows the Marine C-130 in the background. They weren't calling it Fat Albert yet, either. That name belonged to the C-5A at that time.

Last I heard Kenny died. I was TDY with him doing flare drops at Williams, seems like we had 2 or 3 birds, anyway we were tossing down some cold ones and a bar maid came up and sniffed his neck and said,

"what do you have on that smells so good?" Kenny leaned back and said, "A hardon but I didn't think you could smell it". He was a fairly decent guitar picker or was I drunk when he played.

Kenny was pretty darn good, and he had a really good guitar. His was the first Martin I ever played and I've coveted them ever since. They were about $800 then. I settled for a Gibson after I got back to Clark. I couldn't believe it when I heard about the float test. Those Filipinas did not trust their men one bit! His name came up on one of the Email groups years ago and somebody said he had passed away. We've lost too darn many, and we're losing more every day.

Got to fly a shuttle, to TSN with Sam in 72, The AC's name was Pat Maher, if I remember.

correctly. One evening after returning to TSN, we had some folks from Langley TDY to

CCK, Sam and I met another Scot. a LM named David Rae. When David and Sam got to

speaking Gaelic. I figured it was time to leave. I got a spot on my shoulder for carrying him

around, That is one character.

Rg Glenn Secrest

Dave Rae was in the 41st at Evreux, Lockbourne and Naha. He had a Swedish K he had picked up in the Congo when he was there in the early '60s. He had it in his locker the night they came after the Blind Bat enlisted crewmembers hooch at Ubon in the spring of '66. It was the only weapon anyone had. Fortunately, the Nung guard they killed got off a round from his shotgun and they ran off. Otherwise, God only knows what would have happened.

I was LRF when Don Sweet and Linda divorced, Don married a captain (I think she was), and then Don was killed when some Arkansas redneck in a beat-up car turned in front of his motorcycle in Jacksonville, around 1981.

Don and I were crewed together at Pope. The last time I saw him was in 1966 when I ran into him in a bar in Koza when he came through there on one of the first Stray Goose crews. We had a lot of good times together in France, then out of Kadena and Mactan.