Need a little help

[herkman]

The C135 and its many variations I understand, really is not a military 707, but believed was derived from the 700 series, please correct me if I am wrong.

What is the differences.

I also understand that a batch were manufactured with a FE station and part of the crew.

Which series was this and why when most did not have a FE did this series have them.

Lastly is this model in service and do they still exist.

Thanks

Guys

Col

[Guest]

Cant help ya Colin, but its good to hear from you.

Tom

[Plaprad]

The only thing I can answer is the number. I've got a buddy who worked 135's and JSTARS. He told me that the 135 is actually a Boeing 717, it's a 707 with a few airframe mods. What the difference is exactly, I haven't a clue.

[DC10FE]

Col,

Welcome back.

As far as I know, there were 3 RC-135D's (4 according to Wikipedia) with an FE position. When they were de-modded to the KC configuration, the FE position was removed, although they kept the "D" designation. When the old J-57's were replaced by the TF-33 engine, they became KC-135E's. Later the TF-33's were replaced by the CFM56 and they became KC-135R's. I don't know if this happened to all 3 of the D-models, but I know that 60-0356 is still flying around as an R-model.

These original D-models were 60-0356 (msn 18131), 60-0357 (18132) and 60-0362 (18137).

Although I take what's written in Wikipedia as not being always true, there is a section there on all the KC-135 variants.

Click here: KC-135 Stratotanker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is also another thread on this forum somewhere discussing the KC-135.

I think the lack of an FE on most KC-135's and all B-52's had to do with the "powers that be" not wanting an enlisted swine in the cockpit. It has always amazed me that the 8-engined B-52 was lacking an FE. The co-pilot on them was not just along for the ride!

Hope this helps.

Don R.

[bobdaley]

Don

There is good book about the 135, "Boeing KC-135 Stratotanker" by Robert Hopkins printed by Aerofax Publishing. It list those 3 as RC-135D and shows crew positions but does not mention an FE.

Last I heard they were KC-135R Air refuelable at McConnell AFB

Bob

[DC10FE]

Thanks, Bob.

Does that book have the airplanes listed with their production numbers? I've been using Joe Buagher's web site to try and piece the 135's together.

Don R.

[bobdaley]

Yes it does, a great book

Bob

[herkman]

Thank you all greatly appreciated

Col

[SEFEGeorge]

Back in 1970 I was stationed at WPAFB in ASD. I worked the recips and had a couple friends working the jet over 2 side (135s, etc.). They were on a TDY out over the Pacific, lost communication with the plane and never was found. The 135s we had were really modded up - Durante noses, missle trackers, etc. Not sure what the models were. I was working the JB-131Bs, C-121C, etc., side of the house.

[chuckb]

Bob is correct, 356, 357 and 362 are all in service as ARR-capable R-Models. Also, Paul is correct in the original designation for a -135 is a 717-100, as seen on all the identification plates right inside the crew entrance chutes.

[DC10FE]

Back in 1970 I was stationed at WPAFB in ASD. I worked the recips and had a couple friends working the jet over 2 side (135s, etc.). They were on a TDY out over the Pacific, lost communication with the plane and never was found. .

George, That was probably EC-135N, 61-0331 (18238). It was lost on 6/71 while monitoring the French nuclear tests in the Pacific.

Don R.

[bobdaley]

I had a classmate copilot on that one Byron Burnett. Story I heard was it just came apart in flight.

Bob

[P3_Super_Bee]

The tubes(fuselage) are narrower on a 135 vice a 707. Though the JSTARs and some of the TC18s are converted 707s acquired from airlines.

[P3_Super_Bee]

The tubes(fuselage) are narrower on a 135 vice a 707. Though the JSTARs and some of, if not all of the TC-18s are converted 707s(wanna say -300's)s acquired from airlines. The JSTARS was supposed to be going through the 7Q7 mod, where they get the JT8D-219 engines, not sure if it went through or not.

Edited January 13, 2010 by P3_Super_Bee

[SEFEGeorge]

George, That was probably EC-135N, 61-0331 (18238). It was lost on 6/71 while monitoring the French nuclear tests in the Pacific.

Don R.

Don, it had to be before that. I left WPAFB in Nov 70 on my way to C-7A school at Dyess and then on to CRB.

[TSgtRet]

When I was in SAC we were told that the fuselage was smaller and the wings were a different length (can't remember which was longer/shorter) and that there was one 135 in the fleet that had a 707 wing on it. The planes at Wright-Patt with the big noses were the ARIA aircraft. When I was there 89-92 I was told some were 135 airframes and some were 707; you could tell the difference by the crew entry point (bottom or side).

[Dan Wilson]

The 135 came first, then Boeing developed the 707 off of the 135 program.

They both share two wings, ten tires and four engines, outside of that they are really (for all practical purposes) different airplanes.

The 707 is longer than the 135

The 707 has a wider fuselage than the 135

The 707 has a wider wingspan than the 135

Its a nightmare to service the 135, all the filters and and other stuff you need to check on pre/post flights,most are behind panels that have a bazillion fasteners or similarly difficult to access.

The 707, being designed for the civilian aviation market, has most of the items that need to be accessed for inspections (or between flight servicing) are in the wheel wells or in a like easy access location.

The only 135 that uses an FE that I know of are the VC-137's, (maybe the EC-135's had them as well, I don't remember) not that they really need to be there, those aircraft are all set up like a normal KC-135. Kinda like putting an FE on the J model:confused:

Curtis LeMay was the primary reason the plane didn't have an FE, he had problems with enlisted pukes for some reason. Usually what LeMay wanted, LeMay got.

The Air Force got waivers from the FAA for operating these large aircraft without an FE, all similar civilian aircraft were required by FAR to have an FE position.

I don't remember if Boeing developed the prototype without an FE (knowing they had to sell the jet to LeMay) or if they did have one and then had to redesign the cockpit without one to appease the man.

I may be wrong on a point or two, the way my memory has turned to sludge in the last couple of years, but I am pretty sure that's the way it was, but as always YMMV.

Dan

[P3_Super_Bee]

The 135 came first, then Boeing developed the 707 off of the 135 program.

Dan

That's why the airliner is a 707, and the original 135 was designated 717...

They were actually designed side by side as two different aircraft. Though Boeing's site actually state "the 135 can trace its ancestry to the 707". I do believe the Air Force was first to purchase aircraft, before any airline ponied up for the airliner.

So why would the Model 360-80(the prototype aircraft) have the same fuselage diameter as the 135 and not the 707? The 707 was only designed to have two by two seating, thus only needing the fuselage diameter of the Dash 80. But the airlines wanted three by three, as the DC-8 had. So Boeing widened the fuselage for the airliner version prior to the first production aircraft.

[Randy Losey]

Back in 1970 I was stationed at WPAFB in ASD. I worked the recips and had a couple friends working the jet over 2 side (135s, etc.). They were on a TDY out over the Pacific, lost communication with the plane and never was found. The 135s we had were really modded up - Durante noses, missle trackers, etc. Not sure what the models were. I was working the JB-131Bs, C-121C, etc., side of the house.

George,

I have some additional information on 61-0331. Originally 61-0331 was a T/RIA bird (Telemetry Range Instrumentation Aircraft) out of Patrick AFB and was converted by LVT Corporation prior to arrival to WPAFB in 1971. It was just shortly after being transferred that the accident happened. From my understanding there were design issues of the large radome atop the newly modified aircraft that were a concern by those at WPAFB. It is thought that the failure of the radome caused the accident that killed 24.

Although I was stationed at WPAFB some years after the accident I had never heard of this loss. In the memorial gardens at the National Museum of the Air Force there is no recognition of the loss of the crew.

The only reason that I found out about 331 was in researching the ARIA (Advanced Range Instrumentation Aircraft) for my ARIA history web site. I was a crew member with ARIA and operated/maintained the antenna control system.

After learning about the loss of 331 I felt it was important to have an online memorial for the crew. I am President and Founder of the ARIA 328 Memorial Foundation and included the online memorial on the foundation's web site. It was less than a week after I posted the 331 memorial that the son of one of the crew members contacted me. Memorials are important for those of us who are left behind.

The online memorial for 61-0331 is located at http://ariamemorial.com/61-0331.html and provides additional information about the aircraft and crew.

Randy

[SEFEGeorge]

Randy,

I'm not sure exactly when it was lost, but it had to have happened happened before I left WPAFB in Nov 1970. I don't remember the guy's name, just that he had the barracks room close to mine, he drove a Corsair, and he always worked on it and had parts in his room.

Don't think my memory is all that bad but you never know.

[Guest]

That's why the airliner is a 707, and the original 135 was designated 717...

When Boeing bought McDonnel-Douglas a few years back, they discontinued the MD-11 and the MD-95, but remaining orders for the MD-95s were delivered as Boeing 717s; I believe most went to AirTran.

Only the C-17 remains in production at the Long Beach facility.