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Herk F/O\'s and FE\'s


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Just thought I would pass this along...a previous student of mine is one of their senior FE\'s and loves flying for them.

Lynden Air Cargo is looking for 2 Herc FOs and 2 FEs. Also positions posted for Herc mechanics. Gateway is ANC. Contact Adonna Anderson (HR) for application. [email protected]

Just heard that they are accepting applications through Jan. 18th...you can download the application from their website, or you can email Adonna and she will forward you one.

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Okay guys thanks, thats what I was thinking but wasn\'t sure.

All I can say is in the military (air force at least) the term F O means something completely different, sometimes its something that is SAID to the co-pilot as opposed to being the co-pilot!

I like right hand gear actuator for the co-pilot :)

Dan

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There were a few times that I had a pilot or co-pilot reach up to the fuel panel, the air conditioning panel, or the electrical panel. I let it go the 1st time that they did it, but the 2nd time I had my pointer (those extending pointers shaped like a pen), and smacked them across the knuckles. Didn\'t set well with a few, but the ACs realized the no-no, but some of the co-pilots got beligerant and either got put in their place by the AC or by my \"tactful\" approach to their response.

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SEFEGeorge wrote:

There were a few times that I had a pilot or co-pilot reach up to the fuel panel, the air conditioning panel, or the electrical panel. I let it go the 1st time that they did it, but the 2nd time I had my pointer (those extending pointers shaped like a pen), and smacked them across the knuckles. Didn\'t set well with a few, but the ACs realized the no-no, but some of the co-pilots got beligerant and either got put in their place by the AC or by my \"tactful\" approach to their response.

Why didn\'t you just teach him about the fuel system instead?

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Lockheed placed the auto-pilot control panel right in front of the FE on both the P-3 and C-130...so my tactic for over 25 years when one of the pilots would reach up and mess with my panels was to just reach up and turn the A/P off.

After the pilots jumping and getting the aircraft trimmed and A/P back on, if it was the Plane Commander I would politely tell him to ask me to \"fix\" something on my panels and I would if it needed to be \"fixed\". If it was the co-pilot I would just tell him not to touch my freekin panels and I would stop messing with his A/P

The one thing I disliked was a Nav that would jump in my seat if I went to do a walk around in flight, what I hated was a Nav that jumped in my seat and moved switches...even if it was to warm it up some.

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Why didn\'t you just teach him about the fuel system instead?

Well US Herk, in my years on the Herc I did teach Pilots, Co-Pilots Navs, and even LMs systems. If they had a question I would gladly answer it. If something happened to me at least they\'d have some kind of working knowledge. There were times that I was at the pool at my apartment complex in Jacksonville that I \"held class\" there. Many pilots stayed there with their family\'s and they would drag their dash 1 out and we\'d go over systems. These were the same ones I had in the sim and during flight phase.

But the point being is that you touch someone else\'s panel without asking or informing first. How\'d you like it if the FE hit the starter button, set your BDHI, tweaked the autopilot servos, moved the flap handle/gear handle, silenced the gear warning horn, etc?

The overhead panel is the FE\'s concern and responsibility. If something happens up there the FE is the one who\'s trained to handle it, and who\'s A** is in a crack if something goes wrong.

On the other hand I learned about approaches, the nav station, navigating low levels, etc. During Red Flag I \"took over\" for the nav after he had been \"incapacitated\", by the D.O., during a drop route. The days of a crew airplane and combat crew training. But I guess that was before the days of Political Correctness.

You all may be in the mid-east a lot, but we trained a lot to do just what you\'re doing now.

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We had a co pilot on our E models who was a pain in the butt. Made the mistake of playing with the overhead panel, when I was flying as the LM.

The equivelant of a CMSGT in the RAAF is not to be messed with.

He gets out of the seat, told me to sit down and take over, walks over to the co-pilot asks him to get out os the seat, and go and make coffee.

Stan slides into r/h seat, straps in, disengages the auto pilot, trims the airplane, and we continue on.

Co pilot by this time is sitting on the bunk, comes up and says what gives.

Well now says FE, you can see how important you really are. Stan flew the airplane for several hours without the auto pilot. Then we all moved back.

AC then addressed the co pilot and said, you may if you are lucky, before you leave the air force, may hope to come up to the FE\'s knowledge, but you will never know more.

Turns out that Stan had more hours flying the C130, than the boy had all together.

They were good days which can never be replaced.

Regards

Col

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SEFEGeorge wrote:

Well US Herk, in my years on the Herc I did teach Pilots, Co-Pilots Navs, and even LMs systems. If they had a question I would gladly answer it.

No doubt - all good engineers do. My point was there\'s a different way to handle it than just pissing him off.

SEFEGeorge wrote:

But the point being is that you touch someone else\'s panel without asking or informing first. How\'d you like it if the FE hit the starter button, set your BDHI, tweaked the autopilot servos, moved the flap handle/gear handle, silenced the gear warning horn, etc?

If he\'s doing it to help, maybe. If he\'s doing it to piss me off, we\'ll talk.

SEFEGeorge wrote:

The overhead panel is the FE\'s concern and responsibility. If something happens up there the FE is the one who\'s trained to handle it, and who\'s A** is in a crack if something goes wrong.

Ultimate responsibility lies with the A-code & it\'s his a** in a crack. Sure, there may be \"collateral damage\" when the A/C gets taken out, but the A/C needs to know how to run that panel & a co-pilot is nothing more than an A/C in training (if he\'s any good).

SEFEGeorge wrote:

But I guess that was before the days of Political Correctness. You all may be in the mid-east a lot, but we trained a lot to do just what you\'re doing now.[/

Yeah, PC BS sucks, but it doesn\'t mean we don\'t have good crews, good training, and get the job done. Good AFSOC crews learn each others crew position...

The purpose of my original post wasn\'t to start anything - on the contrary. But it seemed the discussion devolved into co-pilot bashing for the sake of co-pilot bashing & a game of one up-manship (I was waiting for the, \'oh yea, I once punched a co-pilot for even looking at my panel!\') - which serves no good purpose.

Going back to your original post:

SEFEGeorge wrote:

There were a few times that I had a pilot or co-pilot reach up to the fuel panel, the air conditioning panel, or the electrical panel. I let it go the 1st time that they did it, but the 2nd time I had my pointer (those extending pointers shaped like a pen), and smacked them across the knuckles. Didn\'t set well with a few, but the ACs realized the no-no, but some of the co-pilots got beligerant and either got put in their place by the AC or by my \"tactful\" approach to their response.

Why let them get away with it the first time? Why not politely ask them to ask you to do whatever it is, or if they wanted instruction, you\'d be happy to give it to them. Instead, they get the silent treatment the first time implying that it\'s OK just so you can smack them with your pointer when you catch them the next time. Perhaps it\'s me, but I don\'t see how that\'s constructive.

This is not an attack on you - I\'m just curious why you did things that way?

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When I was with Transafrik, I had an Angolan captain (Luis Cardoso Paiva) that loved to control the cockpit temperature himself. Every time he\'d toggle it to cool, I\'d reach up behind him & run it to full cold. When he\'d try to warm it up a bit, I\'d run it to full hot. In the 7 years I flew with him, he never did figure it out!

I never did really mind the the pilots messing with the overhead panel -- just ask first. It\'s sorta like being a bartender -- you don\'t want someone else behind the bar with you mixing their own drinks.

I can\'t count the number of times I started engines while the pilots were programming the INS -- or was it the other way around; were they starting the engines while I was programming the INS?

Don R.

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I never had a real problem with the cake eaters messing with my overhead. If the pilot was quizzing his right hand stick actuator he would usually have the courtesy to either let me know or ask to mess with the overhead.

If I was in the back and they messed with it that was cool as long as they let me know what they did when I came back up.

I wouldn\'t have been in the back if they hadn\'t outlawed smoking and forced me to the damn safety valve, aint that right Zak?

The only time I consistently seen a zero mess with the overhead was some pilots had a bad habit of just reaching up and moving the rheostat for the flight deck AC, joke on them though is that I almost always flew in manual temp control so I would sit there and watch them twist it this way and that until they finally would fess up and ask whats wrong with the temp control, I would just tell them it must have the incorrect actuator installed for temp control LOL.

Back in the far off days after I got upgraded to instructor and we did a bleacher flight with extra pilots for a pilot pro I would clear it with the AC and then stick one of the co\'pilots in the FE seat for the flight until it was their time up to bat. That way they could see what it was like to run told data, run all the checklists from engine start to before landing. But then again those were the days where I could get stick time as well, nowadays I think they would kick you out of the Air Force for doing anything so wrong as cross seat training.

Dan

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After spending many years at the schoolhouse you are \"exposed\" to officers from many services and countries. Most of them had never flown a crew airplane and many had overblown egos. The tactful approach very seldom worked so the more \"aggressive\" approach got the best results. As an officer you\'ll probably contradict that.

The A/C may have \"signed\" for the bird, but if a crew member screws up in doing his job, it\'s not the A/C who\'s name and position are highlighted in the Incident Report or AIB Report as the primary cause.

Learning how to \"run a panel\" is not the same as operating the panel. When was the last time you put the LM in your seat and had him fly the plane so he could learn your position? When was the last time you did a pre-flight when it was -30 degrees? Just because I could read an approach plate doesn\'t mean that I took it on my own to set radios, etc., without being asked to or first offering to help.

It might be nothing more than you stay on your side of the fence and i\'ll stay on mine. And not to belabor the point if I was administering a flt eval, or for that matter even a regular mission, and a co-pilot or A/C flipped a switch on the FE\'s panel. Then after landing I\'d be talking to my boss about non-qualified crew members operating panels. If you get in to a mindset where you start flipping switches on the FE\'s panel whenever you feel like, are you going to do the same thing during an ASET eval?

Guess i\'m getting old and crotchity, and saw too many lax attitudes develop from crew members that had gotten complacent, that could have gotten someone hurt or an airplane pranged if the events changed a little.

Sort of an example: FE get\'s to the bird at O-dark 30, no maintenance around. Power cart is off. FE cranks up the power cart and applies power to the airplane. He was Q-3\'d on the spot by the SEFE. Why is that? He never checked the forms to make sure that it was safe to apply power. Complacency.

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\"I can\'t count the number of times I started engines while the pilots were programming the INS -- or was it the other way around; were they starting the engines while I was programming the INS?

Don R.

It was standard procedure in the Navy for the FE to start the outboard engines during taxi. We use to kid everyone that it took two pilots and a FE to start the inboard engines...but one person to start the outboards.

Then again, the Navy allow their FE\'s and certain senior enlisted taxi the aircraft...Forgot about that back in the early 90\'s at LR when the load and I taxied our Herk over to the transit parking. Ya would have thought I was stealing the freekin thing. I got clearance from the tower, told the host CC what we were doing and as soon as I started to taxi the CC figured out it was two enlisted in the cockpit and called the AP\'s. Took a while to get that figured out...took a call from my C.O. to some Col. to get me out of hot water.

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I don\'t, as a rule, randomly flip switches on the overhead panel. I think I probably do it about how Dan described. If the FE is in the back & an aux/ext tank went dry, I\'d have my co-pilot fix it under my supervision & inform the FE when he got back. If I\'m on a high-level cruise & want to teach something on the overhead panel to the CP, I make sure the FE is involved. I *might* tweak the temp (always check it\'s in auto first - old trick, Dan), but that\'s a rarity - and I would only do it if the FE is occupied (doing TOLD or out of his seat).

SEFEGeorge wrote:

After spending many years at the schoolhouse you are \"exposed\" to officers from many services and countries. Most of them had never flown a crew airplane and many had overblown egos. The tactful approach very seldom worked so the more \"aggressive\" approach got the best results. As an officer you\'ll probably contradict that.

Nope, no contradiction there - plenty of big egos on the Officer side of the house & pilots tend to have it worse than others. That said, there\'s plenty of FEs who like to show how important they are in various ways. There\'s bad apples in every crew position, but to paint them all with the same brush is short-sighted.

SEFEGeorge wrote:

The A/C may have \"signed\" for the bird, but if a crew member screws up in doing his job, it\'s not the A/C who\'s name and position are highlighted in the Incident Report or AIB Report as the primary cause.

I\'ve been in heaps of trouble for things my crew did (mainly LMs :laugh: ). I\'ve been on a AIB & fought hard to keep crew issues from getting planted on a single crewmember\'s shoulders too. The bottom line is, the buck stops with the AC - like I said, there\'s often collateral damage & other crew positions get hit.

SEFEGeorge wrote:

Learning how to \"run a panel\" is not the same as operating the panel.

I know what you\'re saying here, but it isn\'t rocket science (neither is flying the plane for that matter). Familiarity makes it easier & expertise from being the man who does it makes you proficient. I don\'t claim to be proficient & I\'m happy to let the FE run the overhead panel.

SEFEGeorge wrote:

When was the last time you put the LM in your seat and had him fly the plane so he could learn your position? When was the last time you did a pre-flight when it was -30 degrees?

I\'ve done both of those things. I also did my last sim refresher from the FE seat & loved it - I learned a lot. You should never stop learning.

SEFEGeorge wrote:

And not to belabor the point if I was administering a flt eval, or for that matter even a regular mission, and a co-pilot or A/C flipped a switch on the FE\'s panel. Then after landing I\'d be talking to my boss about non-qualified crew members operating panels. If you get in to a mindset where you start flipping switches on the FE\'s panel whenever you feel like, are you going to do the same thing during an ASET eval?

Maybe AFSOC is just different, but yes. If the FE was not able to take care of the panel because he was in back working an issue, checking a leak, or whatever, then I would - even on an ASET eval.

You keep taking my posts personally & it\'s not my intent. I simply asked why you did what you did & the answer was basically some pilots are arrogant. I still stand by my statement you might have been better off with the tactful approach, but that\'s not everyone\'s style - that\'s fine too.

It\'d be an awfully boring world if we were all the same...:cheer:

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Guess I took too much pride(and ego)in the effort I put into being an FE. I know that there were ACs that refused birds just on my say-so as to what I perceived as a problem, significant problem.

Had an AC once where we had a strange engine problem flying up to Kotzebue, similar to a throttle failure but not quite. Before we caged it I had him make a turn so I could see #2 in the rising sun, as soon as he turned I was watching the engine and as soon as I saw the side of the engine I told him to cage the engine. Without a question he caged it and then asked what\'s up. The inboard side of the engine had a sheet of fuel blowing back. Engine shop couldn\'t find a reason for the fuel blowing out and said we were good to go. I told him that something was still wrong. He asked engine shop look further. Well as soon as they pressurized the system past the fuel shutoff valve the engine guy got a bath. Seems we had a cracked line at a fuel nozzle.

Guess the point being that the FE has to have good credibility and great system knowledge (over and above the dash 1). And that\'s what I based a lot of my evals on. People still bitched about dash 1 this and that, but if I had a 2,000 hour FE and all he could do was quote the dash 1 then I had suspicions about his knowledge and ability.

Over the years I had 3 job offers. One to teach at the FE Performance School, one to teach at the McChord Sim after my fresher there, and one to move to gunships during Brim Frost 85. Not sure why I didn\'t. Guess I\'m just a trash hauler at heart.

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In the Navy we flew set crews while on the deployment(THE ICE) so after a month we knew each other habits. If I went to the back for something I would tell the pilots how the panel\'s were set ie, \"were on aux tanks\". That method worked well for me, if they played with the heat,while I was gone, I would set it back to where it felt good for me... AS far as navs in my seat while I was gone, I would move the prop beat under their seat, enjoyed watching their junk shake around the nav table.

In the commerical world, a PFE\'s pay scale is equal to or more then the FO\'s. The big difference between a PFE and a SO (second officer)is a PFE has an A&P licence and is a maintence and systems expert. The SO is a pilot trying to move up to right seat and has enough system knowledge to pass a check ride.

When I worked for TRANSAFRIK I tried!!! to teach the CAPT\'s and FO\'s how to start the GTC/APU just in case we had to get out of a remote area fast. I would set the panels up so when the GTC/APU came on line all they had to do was push the #3 starter button, by that time,I would hopefully be back in the seat..

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Mortarbait,

At the risk of being accused of honking my own horn (I am a retired FE, I\'m allowed to), here\'s a letter I wrote and had published in Airways magazine a few years ago. It pretty much explains the difference between an SO and a PFE. The 727 guys will know what the title \"Check Essential\" means.

Don R.

“CHECK ESSENTIAL!â€

John,

Please thank Mac af Uhr for his extremely enjoyable article \"Back Seat Drivers\" in your July issue. As a fairly recently retired professional flight engineer (PFE) with the DC-6, Hercules, Electra, B-727 and, finally, the DC-10-30F in my log books, the article brought back some very pleasant memories.

Since the article was written from a Second Officer’s (SO) perspective, I’d like to make some observations from the perspective of the PFE. The SO is a pilot who is dreaming of the day he will be upgraded to a window seat. On the other hand, a true PFE (or “oilerâ€) is, the majority of the time, an A & P licensed mechanic who is happier than a pig in …; well, he’s very happy to be sitting directly in the center of the cockpit on his Hercules or riding side-saddle on his jet. He does the best job he can in that capacity and isn’t looking for another seat.

In flight, the flight engineer is usually thought of as just along for the ride, making sure his fuel is balanced, his generators are generating, his hydraulics are pumping and that the arrival and departure messages are sent. It’s when an in-flight emergency pops up that he comes into his own. When that happens, as he looks up, all he sees are two faces full of deer-in-the-headlights eyes looking at him. I remember many times in the DC-10 simulator handling multiple in-flight emergencies, my desk covered in emergency checklists I’m trying to orchestrate concurrently while also completing the normal checklists. All this taking place with minimal emergency lighting, a flashlight with dying batteries, a face full of oxygen mask and the two pilots struggling to make sure we all don’t crash and burn.

One final observation. Last week I was corresponding with a very good friend of mine, a retired DC-10 captain. We were reminiscing about his days as a very young C-130A aircraft commander in Vietnam. Here is an excerpt from that email: “the comfort of wearing a flight suit, headsets, pallets, ALCE’s, a 781 in my hands and, for your benefit, but with truth more real than you know, the confidence of looking over my right shoulder at some of the finest flight engineers in the world.â€

Thanks, Roy.

Best Regards,

Don Rogers

Valrico, FL

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