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cfisher

TAC to MAC

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How many of you were in TAC when we changed to MAC and how did you like it. I didn't like it there were too many changes . I thought we had been operating the C-130 just fine while we were in TAC for all those years and we did not need a bunch of new regulations and operating procedures. I disliked the change so much I couldn't stand to wear the MAC. Patch on the flight suit.

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I started flying Herks in TAC (EC-130E's) and it sucked.

They were the tightest bastards with money, lucky I could get a flight suit or thermals. Need some flight gloves - gotta turn in the old pair. No such thing as a spare pair in the old helmet bag.

Nothing like going to an Aircrew confrence and having Gen Creech ask what the hell are all these "Crew Chiefs" doing here, after all there are no enlisted Aircrew in TAC:mad:

When I got to MAC in Germany (37th TAS) I thought I was in heaven, getting gear was no problem at all.

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How many of you were in TAC when we changed to MAC and how did you like it. I didn't like it there were too many changes . .

cfisher,

Are you referring to late 1974 when MAC absorbed all the TAC C-130 assets? If so, I agree with you -- mostly.

In TAC, we were pretty much proud of having to live in tents & eating C-rats. When we went to MAC, I learned a new phrase to say to the guy in the billeting office; "Statement of Non-availability." "Not up to MAC standards."

MAC was much more micro-managed than TAC.

Don R.

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For the ANG it was a patch change. I remember being on a "Spanish Log" mission and riding the bus to quarters off base with a C-141 and C-5 crew. They all bought a beer a piece while we got a case for the crew. The "big MAC" boys were pissed about they way things were being handled by billeting. About halfway into the ride to Madrid I looked at the C-5 AC and said "man this is great ain't it?" He asked what so great about it and I told him we weren't just a C-130 crew, we were a Guard C-130 crew and they were getting hosed as much as we were. "Welcome to the world of "little MAC"".

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On a rote to Rhien Main we went down to Turkey for a RON...got to billiting and they said no rooms available...well this was our second trip to Incerlik and were not pleased with the off base conditions or hotel on last trip ...so the AC insisted that we be given rooms on base...the Turk behind the desk said no have! On the key board behind the desk were several rooms with keys just hanging there...AC asked what about those rooms? Desk guy says oh those are in case a MAC crew comes in...are they reserved asks the AC....no just in case...AC picks up the phone ask operator to connect to Base Commander....we got the rooms on base. This was in Spring of 1970.

Muff

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On another trip to Incerlik...Spring 1970....we landed, off loaded, and I was refueling the plane...in about 5 minutes the refuel guy stops his rig and ask me to disconnecrt the hose.

I tell him I'm not done refueling yet...he tells me he has priorty refuel and has to go...I look around...not another plane on the ramp anywhere...I ask what needs refueling....he says that there is a C-141 inbound....I look out at the approach end...nothing insight. He un hooks and leaves. We sit there waiting about 20 minutes later the 141 lands and taxis in....over an hour later we get our fuel....hell we could have finished and been at the bar long before the 141 landed but MAC had prioroty...sucks.

Muff

OBTW...I did a three year tour at Mother MAC as an SMSgt...Logistics training...job could have (should have) been done by a 2 or 3 striper...but no this is hqds and we have to have rank maning our positions...job sucked!!!

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Quit complaining Muff, it helped get your ticket punched for Chief. I was at Clark when the transition came. I came from 141's and I liked the aircrew bill of rights you had in MAC.

When MAC took over, you had a lot of grumbling, and rightly so, for some operations,

but that aircrew bill of rights was a good thing, they couldn't just call you up at O dark

thirty and tell you had to go fly a pilot trainer. A lot of old TAC heads like that one. They

had to give you 12 hours notice.

Glenn

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Ive heard of BIG MAC, but Ive never heard the term little MAC or Black MAC before. I do remember having a mini MAC patch beneath my regular MAC patch though. I came to my first MAC unit in 82, so I didnt know anything about anything, (green fng). Years later though I was well aware of the prima donnas that flew on the 141s and C5s.

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We had some little MAC patches made while TDY to Korea. Loved the chicken wings on the patch. Mine is now in my shadow box with other patches..

Would have rather stayed MAC then to change to AMC.

2uq2grp.jpg

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Hey, I started in MATS (May Arrive Tomorrow Sometime) flying as a Loadmaster on the C-124's before it changed to MAC. No noticible change there. Not long after the base (McChord) transistioned to C-141's and I thought things couldn't get any better. Next, off to CCK, TAC and C-130E. I really didn't notice any real change because the mission changed. Looking back I can't really remember any real BIG change between MAC and TAC. I did like the fact that in TAC we were assigned to a crew that always flew together compared with MAC of never having the same crew.

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Ive heard of BIG MAC, but Ive never heard the term little MAC or Black MAC before. I do remember having a mini MAC patch beneath my regular MAC patch though. I came to my first MAC unit in 82, so I didnt know anything about anything, (green fng). Years later though I was well aware of the prima donnas that flew on the 141s and C5s.

Big MAC was the C-5's and C-141's, Little MAC = Herks, BLACK MAC = SOF Talons (the Talons were still painted black back then)

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Well, it was surely an improvement.

My intro to transports was MAC C-130s when they had Air Weather Service, Aerospace Rescue and Recovery Service, and RC-130s photomapping/recce whatever that was called. Had to carry a lot of books and suffer the usual copilot humiliations. Got to TAC on a SAC base and got to become fleet service on top of the rest.

MAC had "hard crews" for a while. Anybody remember Paul F. Carlton, General USAF, COMAC/CINCMAC and "hard crews"? Mercifully, that went away when he went away. Hard crews as a good deal? Must not have been on a crew with a motormouth, an idiot, a know-it-all and a fanatic born-again-Christian. Thought the train-in-the-left-seat-from-the beginning would fade away too; seems to be more resistant.

Once again they have MAC, ACC, USAFE, PACAF and God-only knows what else C-130s. Rescue gets kicked around to whoever will take them; I guess TAC at the moment.

Single manager for airlift was a good idea. Still is, but MAC probably still doesn't really want to screw around with propeller airplanes.

I think the Air Force has lost its mind in a lot of respects; could start with flight manuals and checklists...end of rant. My $0.02

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I was in Alaska when they changed from Tac to Mac.All of the time i was in TAC I never had any problem with supply in fact they were over generous. Ever so often the Sq commander would tell us to go to supply and get things we didn,t even need so supply would be sure and keep all the things on hand we would need. In fact i was issued so much i still have some things i still use to day. I guess if i were treated like you Sam i would feel the same way. One of the changes i didn't like the FE had to start filling out a fuel from the time you started taxing till the time you landed you had to write down fuel flow and tit and what altitude you were when you landed the fuel that the fuel flow indicater showed you used had to be right. I know i am not telling this right i can't rember . you had to fill out this form only if you flew over five hours . I am sure some know what i am trying to tell you the number of the form started with a 6 i think. I had flew for 9 years and never had to fill out this form and didn't see any need to start doing it. .To me it was a pain in the butt.

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Well, as one who did not wear a baggy zipper suit, I can tell you that MAC was a major step down for "crew chiefs." While in TAC, crew chiefs actually used their tool boxes and were expected to. I cam back from Thailand in 75 and found my unit with MAC patches. The shock I had when I went to the flight line and discovered that I am now a professional seat rigger instead of being a mechanic was awful.

Somehow, MAC had no concept of Herk operations or the need for qualified mechanics with tool boxes deployed in remote locations. I guess they figured enroute stations would handle everything with specialists.

It may have been great for those who had seats in the front of the planes, but for those of us who signed up to be Herk Mechanics, life took a major step down. We were so busy rigging for pax and pallets, we didn't have time to be mechanics any more.

I went to CBPO and volunteered to go overseas and get out of MAC right away.

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I know i am not telling this right i can't rember . you had to fill out this form only if you flew over five hours . I am sure some know what i am trying to tell you the number of the form started with a 6 i think. I had flew for 9 years and never had to fill out this form and didn't see any need to start doing it. .To me it was a pain in the butt.

I think you're referring to the DD Form 796. You're right, it was a real pain in the butt!

Don R.

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I am a TAC-trained killer from way back, but I spent about half of my USAF 12-year career in MAC, a year in C-141s at Robins and five years at Charleston and Dover in C-5s. Personally, as far as I'm concerned, MAC SUCKS, and I MEAN SUCKS! As the old song the C-119 troop carrier guys used to sing, "I'd rather have a sister in a whore house than a brother in MATS (MAC)." I have never seen so many crybabies in one place in my life! Right after I got to Naha I went to Da Nang on a Fact Sheet and we were put in tents and given sheets. One of the other loadmasters had just come out of MATS and kept harping "MATS would never allow this!" Finally one of the other loadmasters told him to shut the hell up, that he was in the Air Force now! I used go into Cam Ranh Bay in C-141s and listen to the flight engineers, most of whom had never served overseas, talk about how they were "in combat." What a crock of BS! Sure, MAC crews got per diem and had their own quarters, but they were lacking in something. After I went to Charleston I had an additional duty in awards and decs. USAF had gone to the WAPS system and I had all of these E-6s and E-7s wanting me to put them in for Commendation Medals so they could have a decoration on their records. They were putting up signs on MAC bases that said "Our mission is to fly and fight - and don't you forget it!" You never needed that in TAC and PACAF.

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I was at Pope when we traded patches. As a FE, the most uncomfortable thing for me was doing reduced power takeoffs. In TAC every takeoff was Max Power. The Form 796 wasn't an issue as it took up time and made the 10 hour over-water's more bearable.

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I went from MAC to ATC back to MAC to USAFE to AMC to ACC and finally back to AMC, so I saw how many of the different commands operated. Herks are in the right place now. AMC has a much better idea of how to use them operationally. But I think the move to ACC (at least for a few years) is paying off. One of the best things ACC did when they had C-130s was to start the Weapons School. Before then, tactics was how do you draw charts for dropping sandbags on Sicily or All-American DZ or how do you fly #3 in a 6-ship. The Weapons School really got the community thinking about how to fly the aircraft, how to work in the system with all the fighters, UAVs, AWACS, etc, and how to operate safely and efficiently in high threat areas. That has paid off in Iraq and Afghanistan. Another of my observations was the C-130 community (and KC-135 community when they joined AMC) were the real leaders in the command (MAC, AMC). I think it has to do with the varied experiences all Herk crews experience and having to operate as squadrons in some fairly remote areas. It often took all the leadership skill one had to get the job done. I'm not sure that same mentality existed in the C-141 or C-5 community.

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I went from MAC to ATC back to MAC to USAFE to AMC to ACC and finally back to AMC, so I saw how many of the different commands operated. Herks are in the right place now. AMC has a much better idea of how to use them operationally. But I think the move to ACC (at least for a few years) is paying off. One of the best things ACC did when they had C-130s was to start the Weapons School. Before then, tactics was how do you draw charts for dropping sandbags on Sicily or All-American DZ or how do you fly #3 in a 6-ship. The Weapons School really got the community thinking about how to fly the aircraft, how to work in the system with all the fighters, UAVs, AWACS, etc, and how to operate safely and efficiently in high threat areas. That has paid off in Iraq and Afghanistan. Another of my observations was the C-130 community (and KC-135 community when they joined AMC) were the real leaders in the command (MAC, AMC). I think it has to do with the varied experiences all Herk crews experience and having to operate as squadrons in some fairly remote areas. It often took all the leadership skill one had to get the job done. I'm not sure that same mentality existed in the C-141 or C-5 community.

If you're talking about logistically, I'd agree. But the C-130 wasn't designed for logistics. It was designed to be a combat troop carrier with the mission of hauling a load of troops 1,500 miles and delivering them either onto a drop zone or onto a forward field in a combat zone. The last time C-130s were used in that role was in 1972 except for the drops at Panama. The C-130 came out of a long and rich heritage that started in New Guinea in 1942. AMC came out of a logistical mission that started in the US at about the same time and which was essentially a military airline.

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I started flying Herks in TAC (EC-130E's) and it sucked.

They were the tightest bastards with money, lucky I could get a flight suit or thermals. Need some flight gloves - gotta turn in the old pair. No such thing as a spare pair in the old helmet bag.

Nothing like going to an Aircrew confrence and having Gen Creech ask what the hell are all these "Crew Chiefs" doing here, after all there are no enlisted Aircrew in TAC:mad:

When I got to MAC in Germany (37th TAS) I thought I was in heaven, getting gear was no problem at all.

That would be the 7ACCS, it was a TAC tenant on an training base. All of the aircraft maintenance folks wore American Toy Company patches on their fatigues.

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If you're talking about logistically, I'd agree. But the C-130 wasn't designed for logistics. It was designed to be a combat troop carrier with the mission of hauling a load of troops 1,500 miles and delivering them either onto a drop zone or onto a forward field in a combat zone. The last time C-130s were used in that role was in 1972 except for the drops at Panama. The C-130 came out of a long and rich heritage that started in New Guinea in 1942. AMC came out of a logistical mission that started in the US at about the same time and which was essentially a military airline.

Sam we took fire going into Grenada during our Airdrop and landing to offload the equipment we couldn't drop also Talon 1's did airdrops in Kosova.

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