Air Force Suggestion Program

[herkfixer]

Would like to hear from other members on their dealings with the AF Suggestion Program.

In my 21 year career I submitted 2 suggestions, both very, very simple suggestions for the herk, both were disapproved, years later I found that my suggestions were now on other aircraft in other units.

First one was on installing 1/4" x1/4" hardware cloth and a hose clamp over the exhaust port of the AWADS cooling fan on the aft side of FS 245 right side. (see thread "sleeping on a herk" post #32) Disapproved , said that the cooling fan exhaust could be rotated 90 degrees, discharging the exhaust into the bulkhead instead of straight down. I submitted this at Rhein-Main. 2 1/2 years later I PSC'd to Pope, about 1/3 of the herks at Pope had the AWADS system installed on them. The first AWADS bird I got on I went to the aft side of 245 to check out the cooling fan, and guess what was on the exhaust port, yep you guessed it, hardware cloth and a hose clamp, still pointed straight down.

Second suggestion was on the SCNS (self contained navigation system)

"protective covers" for the pilots and co-pilots IDCU's. My "B" model (59-1531)was the prototype for SCNS, once I got it back home from the mod facility at

Rickenbacker, decided that the 2 IDCU's needed some protective covers while the aircraft was on the ground, during maintenance, protect the co-pilots IDCU which is located right under the swing window and everybody thats had anything to do with a herk knows that the c/p's swing window leaks when it rains. Fabricated 2 covers out of sheet metal that covered the IDCU's, glued some fabric inside to protect the IDCU display, painted them, stenciled them with tail number and pilot/co-pilots position.

QA liked the idea, DCM liked the idea, other maintenance folks liked them,

submitted a suggestion.

Anyone that has done a suggestion knows that you have to be very thorough, detailed, include part number/nsn, drawings, cost of material, number of manhours, pictures, etc.

This suggestion went all the way to MAC Headquarters at Scott, took a long time to get an answer. Finally got a response, "Disapproved" reason didn't want to introduce more "foriegn objects" (FO) into the flight deck environment if they weren't properly stored, we stored them in galley drawer during flight.

Years later after the fleet of herks were modified with SCNS I started seeing other herks from other units with same sheet metal covers or covers made out of fabric with foam inside for protection.

Never followed up on these 2 suggestions, and needless to say I never submitted another suggestion!

73, Rex

[TSgtRet]

I submitted several over the years and had 1 approved (made $50.00). It was for a stand to support the radome when changing the APQ 122 antenna on the AWADS birds. It resembled a stepladder with no steps and a trough at the top. Submitted an AFTO 22 with it but don't remember which T.O. it was put into. This was 1974ish as I remember. The reason I only got $50.00 was it represented no monetary savings but anything safety related got $50.00 at the time.

When I was at Castle I ran the program for AMS (1984/85) and as I remember most people were pretty disappointed with the program because so many good ideas were turned down.

[MAXTORQ]

Rex,

Not much has changed , even in the prop shop we have sumitted changes to either the kit or some other facit. Still get shot down . It seems that when the AF gets a butt load of money certain items change. Or it seems to depend on who's at the end of the stick making the decisions.

[Whiskeyglenn]

Back in my 141 days, I hauled a Chief named Ray Snedegar to a -9 conference. He was

just grabbing a ride. He told me that it costs $1,000 a page to change a manual. Like

the -9. So you needed somebody to say "No" to some of the stuff that engineers could

come up with. This was in 1980 or so. It always seems that this stuff is turned down so

somebody else can make money.

Rg Glenn Secrest

[straygoose]

Submitted two, one was for a proceedure to jumper a dead channel of video to a live one on the S3A FLIR recieved $5000 for that one, deigned, built, and installed a video recording system on the Talon's at Kadena in the 70's recieved $500 for that one.

[INS/Dopplertroop]

Herk Fixer: Sounds like what you ran into was one of two things. Either the guy who disapproved your suggestion at MAJCOM later submitted it himself, after he was in a new assignment or the depot Equip Specialist disapproved what he knew to be a good idea, but didn't want to award out any money. Then he just pushed the change through from his office. Possibly altering it slightly to say it was a different idea. I've known some guys who acted as if they were awarding their own pocket money.

As an Avionics type (38 yrs) my experience with AFTO 22s and suggestions has been pretty good. I have had (what I though were) good ideas squashed, but I've had for more approved than not. My advice would be to know who the decision makers are, both up the MAJCOM and at the Depot. Communicate with them, particularly the depot Specialist, so they are clear on what you are trying to get across. Actually, a good one will seek you out and explain why he or she is rejecting the proposal or ask you to clarify.

[John H Wilson]

I filled one out while stationed at Pope in 71. I designed a stand that held the bottom of the T 56 engine (belly pan) when it was removed from the QEC kit. We wrestled them on the floor rebuilding them, they got beat up alot taking the oil coolers out, and making other repairs. So I designed a stand that held them up, and you could roll them over, it worked very well.. It was approved after 18 months. $150. Good money in 71...

[CBowman]

I got a pretty mug and $250 for the only one I was able to get approved. Had to do with NRTS on flap baffle - one side had a repair, the other did not. Was able to get the TO changed so that both baffles could be repaired on station. Don't recall the cost savings, but appreciated the cash more than the mug!

[Skip Davenport]

I know that you can put in a suggestion to change something and get the procedure approved wait a year and put in a suggestion to change it back just like it was before and get it approved and get an award for both suggestions! No it wasn't me but I know who did it!

[mongo]

I know that you can put in a suggestion to change something and get the procedure approved wait a year and put in a suggestion to change it back just like it was before and get it approved and get an award for both suggestions! No it wasn't me but I know who did it!

Uh, are you saying "CHANGE" is good??

[Dan Wilson]

I cant even think of how many "suggestions" I gave the AF in my time. Only problem was these suggestions weren't the kind you got paid for, more like the ones that get you an article 15:rolleyes:

Dan

[spec13fe]

The only good suggestion I ever submitted was on another airframe, got a nice letter explaining why it wouldn't work as per the Boeing Tech Rep. Two months later nice write up in base paper where Boeing Tech Rep. got big bucks, from Boeing, for the same suggestion.

Left a bitter taste toward the suggestion program.

Mike

[Fleagle]

Well'p

Only suggestion I submitted was at RAF Upper Heyford early 80's - I felt like the only duck in sight during season.

I do know of one suggestion that one kid made some good bucks off. North Dakota (I was still in the skycops then) there were different squadrons and sections to provide security when the silo was opened for maint. This skycop kid was assigned to be on site with the maint folks (part of that whole split knowledge stuff) While the maint troops where opening the "lid" (it was on rails, center rail was cogged so it could manually pumped open after the lid "locks" inside were disengaged. I'm sure most of Ya'll have seen what the old minuteman sites looked like, maybe even seen the old footage where the lid was activated and goes leaping off the rails end for quite some distance. So here's lil' Johnny skycop, sitting topside working on his box nasty when he notices that the chain link fence line in the path of the lid should it be activated would tangle in the chan link possibly dragging the fence along with it over the silo. His suggestion was to put two fence poles at the critical point so they'd flatten out instead of a tangle-mess getting in the way of the missile. Don't know what the amount was he got but the rumor mill (of course) was it was a sizeable amount.

Fleagle

[larry myers]

. My advice would be to know who the decision makers are, both up the MAJCOM and at the Depot. Communicate with them, particularly the depot Specialist, so they are clear on what you are trying to get across. Actually, a good one will seek you out and explain why he or she is rejecting the proposal or ask you to clarify.

[Dearstone]

I think I turned in 2 or 3 suggestions, mostly simple stuff and all were approved if I remember correctly. I believe I only got like fifty bucks for each if IRC, got pic's somewhere if I can find them.

[Dan Wilson]

The only good suggestion I ever submitted was on another airframe, got a nice letter explaining why it wouldn't work as per the Boeing Tech Rep. Two months later nice write up in base paper where Boeing Tech Rep. got big bucks, from Boeing, for the same suggestion.

Left a bitter taste toward the suggestion program.

Mike

What you should have done is file a lawsuit against the Tech Rep and against Boeing, with the paper trail and response from the Tech Rep you have more than enough proof.

They are commercial entities and you can drag thier butts through the coals and maybe make a good bit of coin or at least cost that tech rep his employment.

Dan

Edited February 7, 2010 by Dan Wilson

[tinyclark]

Got some decent money for the change from Freon to SF6 on the AWADS Ka pressure system. Would have gotten more if Special Ops went with it.

OH, they finally did make the change I guess, when they found out how much Freon 116 costs with only one user.

[BobWoods]

Some early medical xray machines used SF6 in the High Voltage transformer, it was sure fun to play with. Used a ping pong ball to check the service level. We also had high voltage test equipment that had gas filled transformers.

[Dan Wilson]

Good old SF6

Man I really hated hauling those bottle carts around but at least I didn't become one of the "leak testers" for it:D

Dan

[JamesCade]

I filled out three suggestions during my time on C-130’s and got one approved. That one was a new tool to install the old Doppler radome (“pre-SCNS†mod) on the belly. When I was first shown how to install the radome, the procedure was to shove a screwdriver in the fastener receptacle, then turn it counterclockwise(?) to “load†the receptacle. Of course, once you FINALLY got the damn thing installed, there was always a couple of fasteners on the leading edge that wouldn’t tighten down so you had to drop the thing and start all over. What I suggested was to have a new radome fastener itself welded onto a standard apex holder, then use that attached to a speed handle to “preload†the fastener. Using the fastener kept you from damaging the receptacle, and you could get all of them preloaded much faster than using a screwdriver. It was also more consistent in the amount of force you used. It helped that I actually had a fastener welded to an apex holder and sent it in with the suggestion as a show and tell. This was submitted in the 1991- 1992 timeframe, and it was approved, but according to my squadron commander it was only “because it’s a good idea, if you had submitted it 10 years ago before SCNS, you’d have made a ton of cash. However, with the new SCNS Doppler radome, it isn’t needed.†Sad part is, I first thought this up back in 1980. Moral of the story: Don’t put off a good idea. I did make $100 off the deal, and still have the tool in my desk drawer.

James

[tinyclark]

Good old SF6

Man I really hated hauling those bottle carts around but at least I didn't become one of the "leak testers" for it:D

Dan

SF6 isn't really a dangerous gas, except that it is heavier than air. The only danger is if there is sparking in the waveguide, which causes a chemical change in it, making it dangerous.

You can inhale it and it will cause the opposite of helium, so you sound like Barry White. I saw the science guy do this on David Letterman.

BUT, you have to stand on your hands/head to get the gas out of your lungs.

[TSgtRet]

SF6 isn't really a dangerous gas, except that it is heavier than air. The only danger is if there is sparking in the waveguide, which causes a chemical change in it, making it dangerous.

You can inhale it and it will cause the opposite of helium, so you sound like Barry White. I saw the science guy do this on David Letterman.

BUT, you have to stand on your hands/head to get the gas out of your lungs.

OK Tiny, if we end up with a bunch of Barry White impersonators running around the flight line we know who to blame!

I remember changing those freon bottles a couple times.......didn't seem to be enough room for me and the bottle in the same space at the same time.

BTW: that suggestion I mentioned earlier in the thread was reviewed and "improved" by Bill Blaylock before I submitted it.

[tinyclark]

OK Tiny, if we end up with a bunch of Barry White impersonators running around the flight line we know who to blame!

I remember changing those freon bottles a couple times.......didn't seem to be enough room for me and the bottle in the same space at the same time.

BTW: that suggestion I mentioned earlier in the thread was reviewed and "improved" by Bill Blaylock before I submitted it.

Good old Bill Blaylock. I took his position at Pope after he retired.

[JimH]

When I was a newbie one-stripe LM at Dyess in '66, one of the other newbie LMs and myself saw an improvement that could be made to a flare launcher. We asked one of the MSgt LMs how to submit it, and he told us it wouldn't work and not to bother. Later the change was made and we found out the MSgt had submitted the suggestion and gotten $50 for it! (At that time, $50 would have been a BIG thing to a couple of A3C..) We were pissed, but what could we do?? Last time I even thought about a suggestion until I was working as an ART at Kelly in '86 - submitted an AFTO 22 on the C5A and it was actually approved!! Of course, I didn't even get $50 for that one...

Jim H

[Dan Wilson]

We asked one of the MSgt LMs how to submit it, and he told us it wouldn't work and not to bother. Later the change was made and we found out the MSgt had submitted the suggestion and gotten $50 for it! (At that time, $50 would have been a BIG thing to a couple of A3C..) We were pissed, but what could we do??

Well you could have always taken him for a "ride":D

If you were in Albuquerque you could have dumped him on the west mesa with all the dead hookers:eek:

I don't tolerate backstabbers very well.

Dan