Bison501 Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Afternoon, I was wondering if you guys could help me out. During the ENGINE START procedure, the Pilot will state "Turning". When should the Pilot state "Turning"? On our FM, we have the following Caution : "If the propeller does not rotate within 5 seconds after the ENGINE GROUND START switch is placed in START and the start valve open light is illuminated, stop start. Maintenance action is required prior to another start attempt. Repeated attempts to start may result in internal starter damage" We also have the following statement : "The loadmaster will monitor the propeller. If no rotation is observed within 5 seconds after the pilot states, “Turning,†the loadmaster will state, “Negative rotation.†Should the Pilot state "Turning" upon depressing the ENGINE START switch to the START position , or after depressing the ENGINE START switch to START AND the START VALVE OPEN light is illuminated? Thanks in advance! Best Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMPTestFE Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 When he hits the switch. The same limit applies to the light. I have no idea, but if the starter had been sheared, there's a chance there may not be enough back pressure to activate the start valve open light. You wouldn't want that going on for very long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Wilson Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Yep, as soon as the pilot hits the start button he states "turning" to give the loadmaster a start time for his five second countdown. This way the load has a reference for how long the start button has been pushed in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NATOPS1 Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 See if your Engine Start expanded checklist addresses your question. It may have specific steps. If the starter is sheared (reason for the limitation) you will get a start valve open light as the air must travel the same route to exit the starter. The starter will be free to rotate so the limit of five secs was placed to prevent the starter from exceeding maximum speed. So if the pilot waits untill they see the valve open light it would not be much different due to the fact the five sec limit is for starter protection. (only issue here is it may take the pressure switch a bit of time to actuate but you would have a rotation call) Five secs is five secs... The Load cannot see the valve open light so his/her five secs starts when they hear "turning". To satifiy both timing requirements they must start at the same time. With that said how long do you wait if you place the switch to start and the valve does not open? (if you say turning when the switch is depressed you wait only five secs....) The Loadmaster is looking for rotation (not the lack of) the Pilot is looking for (No rotation) with the light on. So start switch to start, Pilot says "turning, load starts to count, gets to 5, then says no rotation, the pilot looks at valve open light (ON or OFF) and stops the start, all in five secs..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMPTestFE Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 If the starter is sheared (reason for the limitation) you will get a start valve open light as the air must travel the same route to exit the starter. The starter will be free to rotate so the limit of five secs was placed to prevent the starter from exceeding maximum speed. I'm thinking the start valve light won't come on with a sheared starter, although I never had one of these on an H. If it only takes 2psi to actuate the pressure switch, I would think that with a sheared starter, without the load & resistance of turning the RGB & engine, the air would just free-flow out the back end of the starter. Anyone here had a sheared starter shaft on an H to verify this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NATOPS1 Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Yes..The light will illuminate. Our "T" model has the same system installed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDizzle Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 A lot of pilots say "turning with a light". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tenten Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 No doubt, both the light and the engine to rotate should be within 5 seconds, starting from the moment the pilot depressing the engine ground start switch. The confusion of the two “CAUTION†stated on the FM might come from the way the FM wants to state the two cases required to discontinue the start: Case 1: From the time of “depressing†if the light doesn’t come ON within 5 sec discontinue the start (hidden: Regardless of engine rotation). Case 2: After depressing and light ON; engine rotation should be within 5 seconds. (Hidden: Even with the light “ON†if no engine rotation discontinue the start within the 5 sec). So the light “ON†in the second FM caution statement is not a starting point of timing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rami Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 the pilot should state turning as soon as he pressed the starter button to give the load master a referance to start timing for 5 sec Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NATOPS1 Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Your book: "If the propeller does not rotate within 5 seconds after the ENGINE GROUND START switch is placed in START and the start valve open light is illuminated, stop start." Our books state "If the propeller does not rotate within 5 seconds after the ENGINE GROUND START switch is placed in START, stop start." I think it is just as well either way BUT if you "wait" untill the light illuminates and the pressure switch is bad you could have a starter that is engaged (with NO rotation) for quite some time before a stop start is initiated. We train out FE's to "look" for the start valve opening (Blead air drop or TIT increase) to back up the pressure switch. This is a carryover from the "Older" aircraft but it is a good practice..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tusker Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 We used to say like:.......turning three......button in!!..and holding!!.................................The John Boy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bison501 Posted June 1, 2011 Author Share Posted June 1, 2011 Apologies for the late reply! Thanks to all of you that contributed Best regards Fly safe! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NATOPS1 Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 We used to say like:.......turning three......button in!!..and holding!!.................................The John Boy Button in and holding huh?.... says somthing about the(your) "time frame" there Tusker..... So Bison what are you going to adopt as standard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDizzle Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Your book: "If the propeller does not rotate within 5 seconds after the ENGINE GROUND START switch is placed in START and the start valve open light is illuminated, stop start." Our books state "If the propeller does not rotate within 5 seconds after the ENGINE GROUND START switch is placed in START, stop start." My book says something even a little different than both of those, but pretty close. It says the start light should illuminate, but doesn't make it a condition of a stop start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bison501 Posted June 2, 2011 Author Share Posted June 2, 2011 Button in and holding huh?.... says somthing about the(your) "time frame" there Tusker..... So Bison what are you going to adopt as standard? In our squadron, the Pilot states "Turning" as he activates the ENGINE GROUND START switch. But for some reason, someone brought up this question and i just wanted to make sure that we were doing it the right away :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tusker Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 useless to make a big deal out of it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVNTech Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 My book says something even a little different than both of those, but pretty close. It says the start light should illuminate, but doesn't make it a condition of a stop start. Our book clearly states that no light within 5 seconds constitutes a stop start. The light going out upon release of the switch is the only indication we have that the start valve has, in fact, closed and the starter is not on its way to spinning itself apart as the engine contnues to spool up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P3_Super_Bee Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Yep, as soon as the pilot hits the start button he states "turning" to give the loadmaster a start time for his five second countdown.. the pilot should state turning as soon as he pressed the starter button to give the load master a referance to start timing for 5 sec ~THREAD HIJACK~ Am I understanding this correctly? The PILOT starts the engines???? Or have I missed something? Just trying to learn the C-130 world vice the P-3 world, where as the Pilot has nothing to do with engine starts other than to get clearance from ground, verify his side of the aircraft is clear for engine starts, and to call prop rotation. F/E does the rest... Pilot don't even set power for take offs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC10FE Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 ~THREAD HIJACK~ Just trying to learn the C-130 world vice the P-3 world, where as the Pilot has nothing to do with engine starts other than to get clearance from ground, verify his side of the aircraft is clear for engine starts, and to call prop rotation. F/E does the rest... Pilot don't even set power for take offs. Yep, same as the commercial L-188 Electra -- as I remember, the only time the pilot touched the throttles was during taxi and reversing after landing. The way it should be! Don R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GVS Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 ~THREAD HIJACK~ Am I understanding this correctly? The PILOT starts the engines???? Or have I missed something? Just trying to learn the C-130 world vice the P-3 world, where as the Pilot has nothing to do with engine starts other than to get clearance from ground, verify his side of the aircraft is clear for engine starts, and to call prop rotation. F/E does the rest... Pilot don't even set power for take offs. Don't know how things work in todays USAF but back in the '60's the flt. mech. made air avaliable to start the engine(s).the pilot pushed the start button. The throttles wern't touched by anyone but pilot or copilot. The same held true for Cond. levers,fire control handles and flap handle. Landing gear handle was copilot at pilot command. I'm not going to say this was strictly adhered to but I saw very few deviations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NATOPS1 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 GVS, Pretty sure that's how it goes nowadays as well.... It is for Navy and Marine aircraft at least... we do set power inflight... and have been known to pull a condition lever or fire handle or two.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfisher Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 You must talking about H modles I sure there wasen,t any starter valve light on the Emodles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEFEGeorge Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Give me the old C-118 days. Only time pilot touched any engine controls was during taxi. FE started engines and handled all throttle and mixture controls all the other times. I've been known to "manipulate" the throttles a time or 2 on the Herc, as well as the flap and gear handles when needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWoods Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Wasn't or isn't the red light in the starter button turned on by the starter control valve opening? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GVS Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Wasn't or isn't the red light in the starter button turned on by the starter control valve opening? Not sure about that Bob.Seems to me that if elec. pwr. was applied to the acft. and no bleed air was applied , starter button depressed ,the red light in the button came on and the button was held in. Could be all wet on this, been many a year since I started a herk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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